Question regarding stats

I'd like to start off by saying I'm a rather new player and so far I'm having a great time with the game. I'm a rather curious person by nature and as such I have always been intrigued by the inner workings of complex systems. That being said I have a few questions that I hope the community can help me with.

1) What is the correlation between Int and gem damage? For example, does 10 points of int = +1 gem damage? Does 15 points = +2% gem damage?

2) Do damage over time gems benefit from Int at all? Answered!

3) What is the correlation between Cnc and gem resist rate?

4) What is the correlation between a particular magic skill (i.e. red magic, blue magic) and gem damage?

5) How does Cnt affect gem resist rate?

6) What is the correlation between Str and slashing weapon damage?

7) How does Dex affect parry rate?

8) Is there a list of level 40 skills available anywhere? Answered!

9) Is there a website or wiki where this information may be available? If not perhaps we should get one together! Answered!

Thanks in advance for any help!

[zenga]

2) No
8) Yes, see 9
9) Yes there are a bunch of fansites out there.
One is Flashus
There are more out there, and the links are here somewhere on the forum (i know there is one wiki).

Most of your other questions have been (partially) discussed on this board before. It's worth the time to go dig in the older topics.

Thanks for the information. I've tried digging through the forums, but I was unable to come up with any relevant information. I've found threads where similar questions were asked, but I have yet to see any conclusive answers. If you wouldn't mind directing me to where I could find such information, I would deeply appreciate it.

To be more precise, I've found a site (nodiatis.info) that lists all level 20 and level 40 skills, and that is quite helpful. I was also able to find two different wiki sites. However, all of the sites I've found contain just general information. I have yet to find any site or posts that have any information regarding the specifics of how stats and skills affect damage, resists, and parrys.

[zenga]

The sites I mentioned was for the level 40 skills. They are generally good initiatives, but due to various circumstances the only site that seems to be maintained on a regular base is flashus. I've checked out the other ones before, but forgot the urls. Good thing that you found the lvl 40 skills at least.

The impression I have is that you want to find out hard numbers. And thats hard to figure out. I even doubt if any were able to do that so far. Anyway, will try to answer all your questions one by one

1) The more int, the more likely you will do full damage. There is no known formula to my knowledge but it's pretty straightforward.
2) No. DOT gems have a fixed damage amount. There is no other gem/skill/stat that lets you alter the damage done from a DOT. So the only thing important for DOT's is cnc (and energy/mana obviously).
3) The higher your cnc, the more likely you will hit your opponent. Again no known formula.
4) The higher a particular gem color is, the higher gems you can buy and use. A higher level gem will do more damage then a lower one. This thread from chrism contains a spreadsheet with gems available in towns up to town 7. The color, type, min/max damage etc is also listed.
5) The more cnt, the less damage from magic you take. No know formula to my knowledge.
6) The more str, the more full damage you will do. Critical strike, overcrit, your weapon min/max damage and your slashing spec skill are important parameters inhere.
7) Damn you are stubborn. I told you 7 questions ago it's hard to calculate the formulas in nod :d
chance to parry = parry skill / dual parry skill if applicable / amount of dex/agi
8) done
9) done

Again, to figure out the raw formulas seems to be impossible. There are so many parameters in nod it's pointless in a way as well. For example: how much CNT you need ... it totally depends on your build, class, player level, armor, other skills (many gem resistance skills), aura's, if you (and with who) are fighting in group or tend to solo, etc ..

Disclaimer - It's possible that everything I say here is wrong.

What I suspect is the case is that - with the exception of people working on the game - nobody actually knows the exact formulas that anything uses. Nodiatis is a cool game, but there are a fairly small number of active, long-term players compared to many traditional commercial products. This means that there's fewer people banging against the system trying to figure out exactly how things work. To the best of my knowledge, there are no logging programs available for the game, so even if somebody did want to sift through data to try to figure out how various numbers work, the data collection process would be kind of tedious and error-prone. There's some speculation out there, but for the most part the exact formula behind most things are - I believe - unknown.

EDIT: Zenga beat me to it.

Thank you both for your responses, though the news is rather disheartening. I don't see why such information wouldn't be made publicly available by the game developers. It's not like hiding such information makes the game more "fun", just more frustrating. Especially when so many concrete numbers in the game are already revealed through the tooltips.

The reason I am so curious is because I recently dueled a level 4 character who had leveled up nothing but melee and put all of the points from every gain into strength. This character was able to deal more than the damage printed on their weapon rather consistently (and no, they weren't critical hits). It got me to wondering if the same mechanics existed for Int and gem damage.

Originally Posted by zenga

Again, to figure out the raw formulas seems to be impossible. There are so many parameters in nod it's pointless in a way as well. For example: how much CNT you need ... it totally depends on your build, class, player level, armor, other skills (many gem resistance skills), aura's, if you (and with who) are fighting in group or tend to solo, etc ..

A favorite quote from Alexander the Great:
"Nothing is impossible to him who would try."

I'm afraid I'm only level 7, and as such, I'm incapable of doing any sort of rigorous testing, but I can already think of a test that would provide very valuable data if anybody is willing to try it.

1) Take a character with at least 20 levels in magic (the more the better).
2) Retrain magic stats
3) Create a dummy character and get this characters green/white magic skills high enough to get continuous healing gems.
4) With int at baseline, go duel this dummy character and observe the damage done with different gems. It would be advisable to keep auto attack off, and use minimum rank damage gems for the purposes of this test so as not to kill the dummy.
5) Gradually increase your int and keep testing.

The results of these tests well help to determine what effect int has on gem damage and how much int is required in order to increase the damage of a gem. This test would be interesting to be performed with both the dagger of flames gem and the krozzixes gem in order to see the effect of int on spells that have variable damage and those that deal a constant damage.
(Note: the same test could be performed with DoT gems, but it seems that you are confident they are unaffected by int). Such information would be very valuable in character development planning.

Testing parry/block/resist rates would be a fair bit more complex. But I could come up with some tests if anybody is interested.

[zenga]

The thing with testing is that there seems to be a random factor, or luck factor. So to have some reliable info one need to perform a few 100 fights to be sure. Not to mention that pvp works different from pve (one will hit harder in pvp than in pve with the same weapon).

The reason I see why this information (i.e. formulas) aren't made public is pretty simple: everyone would end up with exactly the same build. Taking into account that PvP will start to play a major role inhere, it would be sad if we all have the same build/stats/gems.

One of the two last things changed here will (tmho) start to even out all differences between players. That are:
- the fact that the cap for stat skills (melee, magic, defense, recovery) is not raised
- the feature that we can untrain stats now ... all melee fighters will go to lvl 70 cap, untrain magic/Recovery stats and bring melee/defense to 100.

So myself i'm happy all the math in the game is not made public yet.

Originally Posted by zenga

The thing with testing is that there seems to be a random factor, or luck factor. So to have some reliable info one need to perform a few 100 fights to be sure. Not to mention that pvp works different from pve (one will hit harder in pvp than in pve with the same weapon).

The testing would most certainly take many trials in order to gather any statistically significant data. Even more to come up with anything conclusive. But that doesn't mean it is impossible by any stretch.

Originally Posted by zenga

The reason I see why this information (i.e. formulas) aren't made public is pretty simple: everyone would end up with exactly the same build. Taking into account that PvP will start to play a major role inhere, it would be sad if we all have the same build/stats/gems.

One of the two last things changed here will (tmho) start to even out all differences between players. That are:
- the fact that the cap for stat skills (melee, magic, defense, recovery) is not raised
- the feature that we can untrain stats now ... all melee fighters will go to lvl 70 cap, untrain magic/Recovery stats and bring melee/defense to 100.

So myself i'm happy all the math in the game is not made public yet.

I'm afraid I strongly disagree with you on this point. If the builds are truly equivalent, why would people gravitate toward one build or another? If one particular build is so dominant that everybody would be forced into playing it if they wanted to be competitive, then that is not a problem with information dissemination, it is a problem with game balance. Furthermore, it should be addressed by changing the formulas and calculations of the game, not by hiding said formulas so only a lucky few can stumble upon it.

I do not claim to be a mind reader and I am not fully aware of the intentions of the developers, but I remain confident that the goal is to create a fair and balanced game. If the calculations of the game cannot withstand the rigors of mathematical scrutiny, then perhaps they should be reworked. By obfuscating the formulas so that nobody is capable of analyzing and testing them, the developers are essentially cutting the community off from any intelligent feedback.

But that is simply my opinion, I may be wrong

Personally I love math and puzzles but I think it would be a waste of time to try and figure out a formula for this game. even with a dummy char one level up in any # of skills would totally throw off the testing. There are just too many variables and I do believe luck has a lot to do with it.

PvP is totally different then PvE. I can fight a mob 5 levels above me and he only does minimal damage which allows me the chance to heal and eventually kill him, but another char of equal lvl to the mob I wouldn't stand a chance against.

What I have noticed is your char level makes much more of a difference over what your individual stats are.

For example say I am a warrior with str and dex 100 pts each over what my normal char lvl should be. If I fight someone 7 levels above me I may hit him once or twice before i'm dead, if i'm lucky. So those extra points don't really help. As the level difference decreases my chances of killing him first increases greatly, therefore letting those extra 200 pts become more effective.

There are a few players here that have done numerous test to try and figure out things and have come to no concrete results.

I think there are too many %'s involved. I'll try and give you a quick example...lol

Lets say you are a warrior. (5% bonus to max melee damage)
lvl 5 char fighting a lvl 8 mob. (The 3 lvl difference decreases your chance of hitting by ?%)
Str is normal (?% to do max damage)
Dex is normal (?% to hit mob)
Weapon damage range is 1-8
Weapon delay is 16 (1.6 seconds)
Weapon accuracy is good (?% chance to hit)
Crit level is 4 (1% chance to crit)
Overcrit is level 3 (1% increase in total damage)
Slashing is lvl 6 (-?% damage due to the mob being a lvl 8)

[Total of 3 known %'s and 5 unknown %'s]

Now the mob has the same stats as you for a typical lvl 8 mob (Whatever that is we will never know)

He is a warrior also. (?% bonus to max melee damage)
The 3 lvl difference increases his chance of hitting by ?%)
Str is normal (?% to do max damage)
Dex is normal (?% to hit mob)
Weapon damage range is ?
Weapon delay is 20 (2.0 seconds)
Weapon accuracy is great (?% chance to hit)
Crit level is ? (?% chance to crit)
Overcrit is level ? (?% increase in total damage)
Slashing is lvl ? (+?% damage due to you being a lvl 5)

[Total of 0 known %'s and 8 unknown %'s]

Now that is the offense. For defence you have...
Suiting level (decrease damage taken when hit)
Blocking if a shield is used (?% depends on Str and Agi)
Parry (?% depends on AGI and DEX)
Agi (?%)

[Potentially 5-6 more unknown %'s)

I'm sure I may be leaving something out but that is 3 known out of 22 total percentages.

And this is only for Melee attacks. If you include magic attacks you have to add an entire new set of variables.

I also agree that leaving these %'s a secret is a good thing. Enchanting stones are a great way to play around with your stats and now the ability to de-level some really allows for someone to customize their character.

Originally Posted by richp

I also agree that leaving these %'s a secret is a good thing. Enchanting stones are a great way to play around with your stats and now the ability to de-level some really allows for someone to customize thier character.

Again, I'm going to have to disagree. You haven't provided any evidence as to WHY you want to keep these percentages a secret. I'm afraid I don't understand the reasoning behind deliberating not wanting to know about the mechanics of the game. I'm not saying I don't want random elements in the game, I'm just saying that if an element is not random, I would like to know what affect it has upon my character.

What good is it to be able to select my stats and change my stat allocation when I don't know what those stats do? It is like poking around in the dark hoping you find something good. Why not just turn on the lights and let people see what they are getting into?

"Luck" certainly plays some role - each hit is random, after all - but with a sufficiently large sample size, that doesn't matter. That's what statistics is for. Additionally, the way you determine the effect of various things is not to vary all of the numbers at once; instead, get a sample of damage done and accuracy against a single particular mob with a character that has, say, 10 points in slashing, and then get another sample with the character having 20, or 30 points in slashing, while leaving everything else the same. If there is a difference, then it's due to the level of slashing, since no other factors have changed, and with a sufficiently large sample size, any "luck" factor falls out; that's how basic statistics works. Yes, comparing two different characters with all different statistics does no good, but that's not the methodology anyone would elect to use anyhow.

ok so tell me how you are going to test anything when there are so few contants and so many variables. You cannot leave everything else the same and test only a few things. There are no exact #'s in this game, its all percentages (i.e. a roll of the dice).

I am going to have to agree with Zenga I dont believe this game is designed to be equal hence the reason to keep everything a secret. If everything was out in the open one class and one build would be dominate over all others and then everyone would strive for that.

Again PVP and PVE are completely different. I'm not saying anything is impossible. You could probably build two chars exactly the same and change one small variable but the results will only help you in PVP. not against mobs.

[Glitchless]

http://forums.nodiatis.com/forums/id...rcentages.html

One note when reading the thread linked above is that it mentions fight statistics being low priority, since a lot has been implemented since then I'd consider fight statistics are mid priority now. It would be a very nice thing for players to have in order to help them judge what stats work best for them.

Note: I don't actually intend to delve into the mechanics of the game, because I just don't care enough to do the legwork, but it is neither impossible nor especially difficult to do so.

It's very, very simple. You leave everything constant, and only change one variable at a time. This allows you do get an idea of what effect a variable has.

Let's say I have a character with a slashing skill of 10. I fight a bunch of Chameleons, using a Grass Sword. I record how often I hit and for how much. I then use the un-training feature to change my slashing skill to 9, and do it again. I repeat this process until I have accuracy and damage figures for slashing skills for every number between 2 and 9. Nothing else has changed, so if the numbers are different in a statistically significant way, the ONLY thing that could be responsible is the Slashing skill. If there are no statistically significant effects on accuracy, for example, that would show that accuracy is not affected by the slashing skill. If differences in damage do not appear until slashing skill drops below 6, that would show that slashing only affects damage done when it is low compared to the level of the enemy, as the tooltip for it suggests. A similar process could be undertaken to discover the effect of any other variable. This is a fair amount of work, but it's still incredibly basic statistics.

It's completely absurd to assume that the numbers need to be secret or else everyone would strive to use the same build. First, it might be the case that a group of three mixed characters outperforms a group of three of any single character. Second, some builds might be better in certain situations than others. A build might do more damage, but tend to require more recuperation time. One build might take a very long time to kill, but be able to kill very high level monsters, while another might be able to shred through monsters quickly, but not have much success against bosses. Additionally, even in a hypothetical world where there is a known superior build, many people will elect not to use it in order to be different. Finally, if there was some build that was grossly superior to all others, it's likely that Jeff would take steps to bring things more into line.

I will quote someone from the thread jeff linked

"Why I can’t do this myself is I don’t want to take my own statistics since I only have 2 hours to play each day; I would rather use that time and have fun hacking, slashing and crafting"

Richp exits stage left.....

[Glitchless]

We don't intend to dumb down the game to the point where people who think it would be either wise or necessary to do statistical data mining with their rested time are happy.