To Reroll or not to Reroll?

[Huggles]

I am currently DK/Necro trying to build a dot caster. With the new quest stuff, I figured it might be worth it to reroll to Druid/Rogue for better gem bonuses (max bonus of 21.9% to green poisons, 6% to black poisons) and bonuses to min damage with staff (staves have high min damage and a Rogue secondary could increase that by up to 20%, which is useful when you can bloodlet 100% of the time).

I am weak now, so is it first worth it to get more boon and be able to farm and earn money, and then reroll? Also, is it worth it to change to these classes at all?

[Master]

if i were you i would reroll...... the ONLY reason why i will never reroll is because i have 12 level 100 lg armours and 2 lg weapons that would cost about 150 to 160 mill gold which is 640 tcs which is 3200 dollars worth that i would be just throwing away..... so im stuck being punished for having these things... but you dont have as much to lose, so i say go for it

[Master]

oops i forgot the weapons... add another 70mil 280 tcs 1400 dollars.... for a grand total of 4600 of waste..... im stuck with the original build.

[Gurnison]

I'm too lazy to do it, but could someone show me the math how you can come out ahead by rerolling? I'm not talking about if you have a totally crappy build with huge amounts of worthless skills. Or if you only care about crafting and not fighting. I'm talking about rerolling from a combat build to another combat build.

The minute you reroll you are throwing away perfectly good combat skills and transferring the xp over to non-combat skills. And with the new quest patch you transfer that experience even faster. Some people talk about rerolling to up their learning skills. Why would you want to transfer experience from combat to learning when the entire purpose of learning is to increase your combat? That seems backwards.

Take a couple of level 20 skills for example. Let's say Squirehood and Double Attack. Let's say they are each at 84 -> 85. You transfer 10M experience from DA to Squirehood. You then get a 1% increase in weaponry exp. So you have to get 1B experience in DA just to break even. On top of that, you are weakened the whole time until you reach that break-even point.

And since you can't get that much experience in DA, you will NEVER come out ahead. You can't come out ahead unless you have less than 24 points in both Squirehood and DA. Then you barely break even by the time you reach 100 points in DA. Did I miss something somewhere, am I having another senile moment and totally screwing up?

Even if you have a crappy build, you're still going to have a lot of useful skills. You are completely throwing those away.

As for class. I don't see how you come out ahead unless you are low level and want to change classes. Rerolling to a new class makes more sense if you're into PvP. For PvE I bet there's not more than maybe 3-4% difference in average farm speed. For PvP the difference is a little higher.

So how the heck do you come out ahead by rerolling? I can see doing it if you're just board or feel like doing something different. I've thought about doing it myself. But to improve your build? I don't get it.

(and I didn't even mention the very high cost even if you don't have lg gear)

[StormGuardian]

I ran a few quick estimates in my head, and came about to the same conclusion that Gurni did. If you're looking to actually improve your build...it's really not worth it. The time you spend overskilling vs the time you spend completely rebuilding(even @ x3 the speed) just isn't a big enough difference to make it worthwhile overall, unless there's some other underlying reason, like a class change, or you really want to focus PvP or PvE and you hadn't before, etc.

However, the people that the learning bonus would, I think, actually help, are those who were PL'd to high lvls, so they have skills from time/money, but their learnings are lacking. When you're lvl 80+ for only a month or 2, and all your learnings are say, sub 40ish, It would probably be worth it to boost all those learnings to around 70 or maybe higher by the time you got back to cap, at which point you'd be getting a large chunk more xp(per troph/gold/etc). For people who have been cap/near cap for a while though, and have high learnings, it's not really worth it imo.

[hotshot64]

I reroll cause I'm bored. If I hadn't rerolled the last 2 times I'd be 40+ bil exp. As it stands I'm at 28 bil max and 13 bil atm.

[Jadakris]

It's pointless to reroll unless you have a half decent build prior to it (or atleast mediocre)

It really helps show you what your doing wrong and what fits your playing style more. I strongly do not recommend reroll a capped too with less than 15 billion EXP. Unless you plan to go DD caster.Can make a good one with very little exp..

[Gurnison]

Yea, some cases make more sense than others.

In the case of someone who PLed fast to cap and threw a lot of high level trophies into combat skills, but they have very low learning skills, what it does is change the payoff time.

To use the same example of Squirehood and double attack. In the first example the payoff time was 100 to 1. So for every million transferred from DA to Squirehood required 100 million to break even, plus whatever time is lost because the toon is weaker. That ratio holds true no matter how many points are in the skills as long as they are both the same, and not OP.

If DA is 64 (5M to ding 65) and Squirehood is 18, then 1 ding of DA transferred to Squire give approximately 10 dings. Now the payoff time is 10 to 1 instead of 100 to 1 like the first case. So if you stick with it for a while you *might* actually come out ahead in the long term, but it will take a while.

It can also go the other way. If DA is OP with a 50% penalty, and one ding is transferred to Squirehood that's not OP, then the payoff doubles to 200 to 1.

Rerolling is like the theoretical bouncing ball that bounces to half it's previous height each time. You can divide the height by half as many times as you want and it will never stop bouncing. With boon it doesn't matter if you're getting 3X experience, 10X or 100X, all that does is change the ratio of how much you lose.

If you start with 30B and reroll down to 15B, you will stay on boon until you get to 30B again. But you haven't caught up yet. You would have gotten 1X if you didn't reroll. So of that 15B you got on boon you would have gotten 5B anyway. If you didn't reroll, you would have 35B not 30B. By rerolling you are 5B total experience behind when boon ends, plus whatever you lost transferring exp to non-combat skills, plus the lost farming time because your toon is weaker. The only possible way to make up for that loss is through increased learning skills. So unless you got a LOT of learning skills, you will never make up for that loss.

If boon is 10X instead of 3X, you still lose experience, just not as much. When you get back to 30B, you would have had 1/10 of that anyway. So you would have had 31.5B when you run out of boon. You are still 1.5B behind.

[cyric]

i reroll alot on juran
it can be worth it if you know what you are doin on reroll i went on 24.6b and by time im dun with this bm i will have 100 in all bm skills or near enough protections and weapons at 90 on most of them also got 100 foraging 100 naturalist and will have 100 collection
also it brings my learning skills up even sexier i will have 2 learning skils at 100 and hopefully a 3rd to 100and a good few at 94+ because of reroll ooh and my weaponcrafting is racing up nicely to 62 as i type this so i should get it up close to 100 by time im dun i also have alts who pay their own way and also earn me plenty of gold to keep me going on rebuild, i also have plenty of rl time so imo it's worth doing it

[terrorbladestorm]

I recently rerolled my character with alot of LG gear, costing me about 25m loses in armor, and maybe another 10m loses in trophies spent on 100 skills like crush, suiting ect...

The reason is not really to get stronger, but
1. Get 100 item stacking (which will now be done 3x faster)
2. get 100 naturalist
3. get 95 fletching (currently at 89)
4. get dragonsorrow shield (done)

With all this, I do believe I can craft LG bows when a good one comes out.

I rerolled with 14b exp, currently at 5b exp. So I have 9b boon, which is enough to get what I want in the non-combat skills.
I will probably also get

1. 100 enchanting (currently 92)
2. 100 collection (currently 20)
3. 100 mining, trapping, wood cut

[Syn]

hey, guys. first, sorry for being a total newb, but I had a few questions. Ima neophyte and all you seem pretty well initiated. having a bit of trouble following the details of the thread conversation. you're all talking a foreign language to me talking in code, but I think I've deciphered enough to get the gist of the conversation. I also get most of the details involving rerolling (I think). the gist of it seems to be that the majority are opposed to rerolling.

this subject was talked about in another thread where it was suggested it might prove beneficial to start with an "Adventurer" class in order to max out learning and other non-combat skills and then respec to something more specialized. this is kinda the track I seem to be on. I've steered away from highly specialized classes and gone for a more generic approach until I figure out what is what.

frankly, I have more homework to do as I don't even get the dual-classing option yet, but basically, I started dabbling with a few character classes I didn't particularly like, rerolled a few times and finally gave up as my non-combat skills I retained were all over the map and started a fresh new character that seems better suited to a broader range of skills (vampire). this class gets a +5% bonus to melee offsetting a -5% gimp to magic and breaking even with no bonus or gimp to either Protection or Recovery.

I'm letting the "Autoroll" spread my xp around and seems to be doing a good job keeping all those skills in line with my level so far. the one thing I decided I wanted to avoid that I found out about specializing is I want to avoid the 50% xp loss for training skills above my level, which is exactly what happened when I tried a specialized caster class.

I'd very much like to max out as many non-combat skills as possible, looking to go the PVE route and maybe get into more mundane chores and tasks like crafting, etc. eventually. ok, so finally, here's my question I've been leading up to all this time (sorry for the wall of txt in background info, but thought it might better help explain my approach) and somebody pls let me know if I'm completely off base, but supposing all this works as I've envisioned and I get a generic "jack-of-all-trades" non-combat skilled class and I then figure out what I want to specialize in (and everybody seems to have their "pet" spec).

reading the original post, it just seems to me if you want to specialize in green and black magic effects, why go druid/rogue? wouldn't it make more sense to do a druid/necromancer? for the class bonuses to both green and black magic effects, or for that matter even a druid/ranger for the combined green magic bonuses (would they even stack like that)?

[Takeda]

@ Syn theres nothing bad about rerolling.
You get times 3 in trophy drop exp (active and passive) so even if you done have the accel upgrade with rerolling its like u do.
With accel you get times 6 the exp and trophys not to mention the added exp gain for resourcing and town walking.
The only matter if if you actually have the free time to rebuild.
Rerolling ROCKS!
Dont let anyone tell you different.

[hotshot64]

The only bad thing about rerolling is you take a loss on your equipment and it takes time to get back up, time that might be better spent.

[Syn]

still curious about ... "reading the original post, it just seems to me if you want to specialize in green and black magic effects, why go druid/rogue? wouldn't it make more sense to do a druid/necromancer? for the class bonuses to both green and black magic effects, or for that matter even a druid/ranger for the combined green magic bonuses (would they even stack like that)?"

[Takeda]

Yup, ever thing stacks except aura effects.

[Gurnison]

Originally Posted by Syn

still curious about ... "reading the original post, it just seems to me if you want to specialize in green and black magic effects, why go druid/rogue? wouldn't it make more sense to do a druid/necromancer? for the class bonuses to both green and black magic effects, or for that matter even a druid/ranger for the combined green magic bonuses (would they even stack like that)?"

He is talking about a DoT caster. The druid has a green bonus and the Rogue has a poison bonus. The green DoT is poison, so it gets a bonus from both. There is also a black poison gem, so rogue affects it also. The rogue class gives the same bonus to the green DoT as the Ranger class, but rogue has the added benefit of increased minimum damage with the staff. Necro gives more bonus to black, but at a cost of lower melee damage compared to Rogue or lower green healing compared to Ranger.


Antigenesis - green poison
Druid +15%
Necro 0%
Ranger +9%
Rogue +9%

Toxicity - black poison
Druid 0%
Necro +15%
Ranger 0%
Rogue +9%

Regrowth - green healing
Druid +15%
Necro 0%
Ranger +9%
Rogue 0%

Melee
Druid 0%
Necro 0%
Ranger 0%
Rogue +30% to min

Special Ability
(level 7 is the highest I have data for all four, so that's what I'm showing for comparison)

Druid 14 DD damage - 2 minute cooldown
Necro 13 DoT damage plus heal - 6 minute cooldown
Ranger 18 attack all DD - 4 minute cooldown
Rogue 10 DD damage plus 5 poison - 3 minutes cooldown

[Huggles]

Originally Posted by Gurnison

He is talking about a DoT caster. The druid has a green bonus and the Rogue has a poison bonus. The green DoT is poison, so it gets a bonus from both. There is also a black poison gem, so rogue affects it also. The rogue class gives the same bonus to the green DoT as the Ranger class, but rogue has the added benefit of increased minimum damage with the staff. Necro gives more bonus to black, but at a cost of lower melee damage compared to Rogue or lower green healing compared to Ranger.


Antigenesis - green poison
Druid +15%
Necro 0%
Ranger +9%
Rogue +9%

Toxicity - black poison
Druid 0%
Necro +15%
Ranger 0%
Rogue +9%

Regrowth - green healing
Druid +15%
Necro 0%
Ranger +9%
Rogue 0%

Melee
Druid 0%
Necro 0%
Ranger 0%
Rogue +30% to min

Special Ability
(level 7 is the highest I have data for all four, so that's what I'm showing for comparison)

Druid 14 DD damage - 2 minute cooldown
Necro 13 DoT damage plus heal - 6 minute cooldown
Ranger 18 attack all DD - 4 minute cooldown
Rogue 10 DD damage plus 5 poison - 3 minutes cooldown

^ Exactly.

Now I just need someone to go back to the original questions:
Is Druid/Rogue better than Dark Knight/Necromancer for a DoT caster/staff basher?
Is it worth it, for someone with about 5,000,000,000 (5 billion) exp to reroll from DK/Necro to Druid/Rogue; are the classes worth it, is it worth it to be able to get learning exp from quests, and will 5 billion exp be enough for boon- should I wait to have more before rerolling?

[Takeda]

Honestly rerolling will piss u off if u has aspirations of getting lvl 100 skills.
If u have no such goal yet then the reroll 5 bill exp you will find is very easy to recover.

Oh how about a neco/ druid or vise versa for pure dotting.

[Syn]

not sure if I'm reading this right, but from the above, the Ranger looks like the strongest class for straightup damage dealing ability.

"Ranger 18 attack all DD - 4 minute cooldown"

did I miss something?

[>.>]

@syn
at cap ranger is 1077 to a single target or half damage to all targets. You also have to take into effect that as a secondary class you only get 2/3rds of the bonuses (9% of a ranger bonus to green becomes 6% if a secondary) so you can mix and match depending on what your focus is going to be.

for all the classes CA's damage at cap you can go here Tinyurl.com/nod-ca-table