Recovery - The forgettable stat

[Hunters Bane]

Well said Pasterqb.

[Conqueror]

I don't think any changes need to be made.

Here is my reasoning:

When you choose to build a character, you chose to build it in a certain way in order to accomplish a certain thing or a certain combination of things.

All of the stats do what they are supposed to do.

Simply defined, a build is a combination of melee, magic, defense and recovery that a person feels will work well in light of his or her own goals for a toon.

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(Flipy, I am not telling you how to build your character so don't get me wrong. Just going to express my point of view below).

In my opinion, a regener can be a very good pvp type character. Here is how.

If I was building a pvp type whipping regener, I would ease up on the melee stat, not bother with the magic stat and distribute the bulk of my points in defense and recovery.

I don't understand why so many people have the misconception that they NEED 140 melee in order to be uber in pvp. In my experience a defensive build will ALWAYS trump an offensive one when it comes to pvp. Remember str is capped and raising it above a certain value will have limited results at best.

With just 79 melee one can have 300 strength which should be more than enough to do maximum damage in a pvp duel. Add 120 defense (all dur) and 120 recovery to the mix.

Level 80 suiting and weapons give 250ish points to play with in enchantments not considering stat enhancement which would raise this figure in excess of 300. Some of these points could go into melee but I would prefer to go all dur for pvp combat. With full dur, I am looking at around 9k in total hit points (not doing exact calcs here).

Now with the regening bonus, the pet healing bonus and the 9k hitpoints, the regener would be quite difficult to beat for the standard non whipping melee (and depending on your skills and your enemy's build) even for the whipping melee.

Not done yet: To this you can add potions. I prefer mitigated damage potions or armor class potions. With a rank 7 armor class potion, you are looking at 1700 - 2000 points of armor class. You could debate playing around with a shield and this could add 8000 points of testudo to your arsenal.

Don't forget a good pvp pouch does wonders.

The possibilities are endless.
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What I am trying to say in other words is pretty simple:

1)
Recovery does what it is supposed to do: as many people in this thread have said, it provides a pretty decent rate of mana and energy recovery and according to you Flip, a somewhat decent rate of hitpoint regeneration. Add to that its out of battle functions of filling up the bars quicker and it is doing what it is supposed to do. No change is needed; in the end, only you can decide if recovery fits in with your goals; if it doesn't, do not level it.

2)
when you are building your toon, you have to decide what you are willing to do and what your goals are. If your goal is to build an awesome pvp type toon, a regener can be a very good pvp character in my opinion. The goal is to prioritize your objectives.

3)
Because of enchanting, builds can be very variable. With my archer, I can play as a beastmaster, a crusher, a slasher, a piercer, and even an archer
All I need is different suits with different enchantments and the necessary skills.
Just pointing out once again just how variable and how flexible everything is in this game. Saying regeners suck and this is set in stone is not true in light of this flexibility.

Regards

[thatperson]

Originally Posted by Conqueror

I don't understand why so many people have the misconception that they NEED 140 melee in order to be uber in pvp. In my experience a defensive build will ALWAYS trump an offensive one when it comes to pvp. Remember str is capped and raising it above a certain value will have limited results at best.

With just 79 melee one can have 300 strength which should be more than enough to do maximum damage in a pvp duel. Add 120 defense (all dur) and 120 recovery to the mix.

ok so 79 melee gives u 300 str...now if i understood correctly u were talking about a whip user...whips are slashing weapons so you need dex to hit...and if u wana be worth a crap in PvE (which you need whether ur built for PvP or not) at cap youll need in between 250 and 300 dex so with 300 str and lets go with the short end 250 dex...assuming both stats have a base of 100 thats 350 stats you need or 117 melee levels....now take into factor yes str has a cap but it is definitly not at 300 (you will b able to hit ur max at about 300) but as you raise ur str your chance of hitting your max goes up (not sure exactly where this stops being useful) i would also like to note probably 1% of the players of this game are 100% PvP so you need to be able to survive PvE also with your build with 79 melee using melee you are gonna get slaughtered by mobs

[Conqueror]

<3 thatperson

I knew you were going to say what you just said so let me clarify.

Originally Posted by thatperson

ok so 79 melee gives u 300 str...

I said: "with just 79 melee." I didn't say you must have 79 melee. 117 is fine too if you feel that it works for you.

Originally Posted by thatperson

now if i understood correctly u were talking about a whip user...whips are slashing weapons so you need dex to hit...and if u wana be worth a crap in PvE (which you need whether ur built for PvP or not) at cap youll need in between 250 and 300 dex so with 300 str and lets go with the short end 250 dex...

250 - 300 is a very arbitrary figure. The truth is that you don't need as much dexterity as you think.

With dexterity = (agi + cnt) / 2 of opponent, you will hit 75% of the time. Decrease dexterity by half and you will hit 62.5 % of the time. With absolutely nothing put into dexterity you will hit between 62.5% and 75% of the time. Precision will raise this even further and so will the assurance rune.
Dexterity is nice but somewhat overrated.

However, the question is not about the value of dexterity. The question is: in a pvp type scenario, will you benefit more from dexterity or from defense. In my experience, the latter is true.

Originally Posted by thatperson

now take into factor yes str has a cap but it is definitly not at 300 (you will b able to hit ur max at about 300) but as you raise ur str your chance of hitting your max goes up (not sure exactly where this stops being useful)

It is not a question of where it stops being useful.
The question is: in a pvp setting, will your player benefit more from trying to attain this usefulness or will your player benefit more from defense.

Originally Posted by thatperson

i would also like to note probably 1% of the players of this game are 100% PvP so you need to be able to survive PvE also with your build with 79 melee using melee you are gonna get slaughtered by mobs

Absolutely not. You missed this part of my post:

Originally Posted by Conqueror

3)
Because of enchanting, builds can be very variable. With my archer, I can play as a beastmaster, a crusher, a slasher, a piercer, and even an archer
All I need is different suits with different enchantments and the necessary skills.
Just pointing out once again just how variable and how flexible everything is in this game. Saying regeners suck and this is set in stone is not true in light of this flexibility.
[/COLOR]

You have separate pvp and pve suits. At level 80, suits and weapons give you around a 250 - 300 enchantment potential. That is more than enough to cover your low melee skill.

Again
I am not here to debate builds. I am here to talk about how recovery is fine as it is.

Cheers

[thatperson]

Originally Posted by Conqueror

<With dexterity = (agi + cnt) / 2 of opponent, you will hit 75% of the time. Decrease dexterity by half and you will hit 62.5 % of the time. With absolutely nothing put into dexterity you will hit between 62.5% and 75% of the time. Precision will raise this even further and so will the assurance rune.
Dexterity is nice but somewhat overrated.

u ever put on a pair of slashers with a crushing build?

here ill give u a preview against a white mob


miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss high hit miss miss miss miss

u get my point i hope

[Conqueror]

Originally Posted by thatperson

u ever put on a pair of slashers with a crushing build?

Yes I have tried out slashers with an all str build and no I did not miss that much on a white mob.

However,
Define crushing build ?

It is perfectly okay to level both dex and str instead of just str for a crushing build. According to Glitchless it takes the average of the two to determine accuracy.

Originally Posted by thatperson

u get my point i hope

No I don't get your point.

But maybe I can make you understand my point and not get into this pointless debate about build types.

I was saying that regeners can be excellent player versus player characters if they are built for this aspect of the game.

In fact, any class can excel in pvp combat. In the case of regeners, with their regening capabilities being the kicker over other classes, pet healing abilities if they are whippers, potentially 9k - 10k in hit points with a heavy defensive emphasis, armor class potions, pvp gem pouches etc etc, they could make formidable opponents in pvp combat.

Also, I was saying that recovery does not need a boost because it does what it is supposed to do.

It is RECOVERY as in recovering from battle or in battle. It won't help you kill the mob in any way. How do you get recovery to play a higher part in the fighting itself. I can't think of a credible way.

Maybe Flipy's goal is to ask for a higher heal / tick ratio or a higher mana/energy regen / tick ratio. If that is what it is, he should come right out and say it. But then he should also explain why the current amount is inadequate or else it sounds like buff me plox.

In other words, how do you get recovery to help you in the actual fighting part of the game itself. It can help you regen in combat, but it already does that. Recovery can't increase your damage as it is not recovery then. It becomes something like melee or magic.

Anyways, that is my two cents. Cheers

[thatperson]

the whole point of this thread is that the only way to build for PvP and having recovery in your build is to have an insane ammount or rec....u stated flipy said u get a decent ammount of regeneration with rec...now lets look at this he had 600 points of reg...assuming he went all rec thats impossible he would need more levels than he could put in...so he had to use enchants to get that 100 per tick out of battle...now in battle he got 20 i believe so assuming he gets hit with constant 150s every 15 delay that 20 per tick is doing nothing maybe a small damage buffer but in PvP it is still weak

[Lurkee]

conq you do realize when you completely dissect someone's faulty reasoning for asking for a buff it hurts their feelings right?

[Conqueror]

Originally Posted by thatperson

the whole point of this thread is that the only way to build for PvP and having recovery in your build is to have an insane ammount or rec....u stated flipy said u get a decent ammount of regeneration with rec...now lets look at this he had 600 points of reg...assuming he went all rec thats impossible he would need more levels than he could put in...so he had to use enchants to get that 100 per tick out of battle...now in battle he got 20 i believe so assuming he gets hit with constant 150s every 15 delay that 20 per tick is doing nothing maybe a small damage buffer but in PvP it is still weak

Recovery is not an alternative to defense. If that is what people are hoping to make it, I strongly disagree. If the goal is to be able to recover enough so that you need no defense whatsoever, then what is the point of defense.

A regener can be a good pvp character with high regen and defense, if they sacrifice a bit on the melee. The additional defense will more than make up for the sacrifice that the character is making in melee stats in a pvp setting and in a pve setting, they can enchant their melee so that it doesn't matter if their original melee level is somewhat lower. It is true that their ability to enchant regen will be limited --- you do have a point there. But you have to pick and chose what you want to do. If you want to go all regen with enchants and 140 recovery, then you also have to live with your limited ability in pvp combat. It is all about making choices. With maxed recovery you might be a poor pvp toon but you can still be a really good tank. So it is not a bad choice for a build.

Just because your class is called regener and your abilities and bonuses involve regen does not mean that you can sacrifice defense and still expect to be a good pvp character.

Originally Posted by Lurkee

conq you do realize when you completely dissect someone's faulty reasoning for asking for a buff it hurts their feelings right?

Just voicing my opinion.

[Glitchless]

It appears that there is a misconception that recovery stats are only useful/noticeable when you dump an exorbitant amount of training into it which is not the case. This most likely stems from the necessity of having very high combat recovery type skills in order to properly test the true effects of recovery stats. A tweak to the way those skills work, for instance having default combat regen start at 5% and go to 10% with combat recovery instead of 0% to 10% might change this perception without altering the end-game balance.

[thatperson]

that would actually probably be a great way to go glitchless

[Conqueror]

I don't know the exact numbers but 10% doesn't sound bad. In fact it sounds pretty good.

Anyways

Smiley face

EDIT: cheers on the pending patch. I support.

Wow Conqueror, I thought you weren't going to debate builds and that you were against a buff?

[Conqueror]

In a tither Sherman ?

The proposed update is a suitable compromise in my opinion. Plus it helps low level casters. I don't mind it.

Originally Posted by Conqueror

In a tither Sherman ?

The proposed update is a suitable compromise in my opinion. Plus it helps low level casters. I don't mind it.

You are NOT Conqueror!

I don't see a 1000 page dissertation on a 5 word poem!

[Revanche]

Originally Posted by Relic

I say in light of recent and past Class, Skill, & Stat changes since the opening of Nodiatis A one time Class Change should be implemented, since classes some people chose 1 or 2 years ago aren't the same classes anymore.

I've been wanting this myself, but for a different(but just as relevant), reason: You can read/troll the forums all you want, but means jack compared to actual in-game experience. It takes time to learn how you personally like to play the game, adn what works best for your personality. By the time I realized the class I would be better suited to (around lvl 30), I had invested too much time/irl$ to just reroll and start over, throwing all my hard work out the window. A one-time deal, even for a small fee, would be amazing for the chance to play the game in a way that follows my personal playstyle. I know I'd have alot more enthusiasm about finding time to log in and grind my way to a higher lvl, and not mope around and drift through a half-assed attempt at salvaging a bad idea that can't be realized until you're way past the point-of-reasonable return.

Sorry for the rant, but relic's post hit abit of a nerve.

Here's your thread back: out of all the main stats, REC gives you the smallest return for points you invested into it. In the grand scheme of NOD, that makes it a nearly-disposable stat, let's hope the readjustment changes that.

[flipynifty]

Alright, I've tested many builds, I've attempted to use REG for defensive purposes and using my REgener to it's true potential...

I found a neat little thing yesterday, dropping REG from 600pts to 460 pts made a different of 22 per tick out of combat. The total healing was roughly 130 per tick at 600, out of combat.

Anyway, I always had high def and rec sacraficing melee and magic costing me any form of PVP victories and even being decent in PVE....

I've delevelled REC quite a ways and am leaning towards that "glass cannon" build now. Even with Hypergen, reg isn't very viable for defense, however it does help and I am grateful. As usual if any Regener needs advice, please PM me, i've tested a ton of stuff and I would hate for you to waste hundreds of hours and TCs as I have.

[thatperson]

ive actually ben working on adding reg into my build and so far it actually seems that its very useful in PvE especially considering the massive damage heroics do so having a large ammount of reg could make it so that you wouldnt lose rrt regening after fighting em


also with hypergen i heal 11 per tick in combat already thats pretty good imo

[flipynifty]

Yes but putting huge amounts into it and sacraficing melee does affect you at high levels.

sooo.... is it worth having a lot of Recovery stats? and is the regener class actually useful/unique at cap (with mainly recov skills)