In regards to class based EXP bonus

Keria is correct int that the initial maths is wrong, but im not 100% that the actual reason for these bonuses have been taken into account. No class like this exists but say a class had 20% melee 20% defence -20% regen - 20% magic (maybe one does i dunno) isnt the idea that at say level 10 your stats will look like 12 12 8 8 as opposed to 10 10 10 10 on a char with no bonuses/nerfs ie, keep the level 20% higher than your player level or 20% lower etc and due to the penalty for leveling stats beyond you player level, and the penalty for letting them drag behind, does it not even out that way? Then again im no mathematition, i cant even spell it, and i dont know the numbers of the bonuses/penalty for each level above and below your player level. It just seems to me that people choose these classes so they can have a stronger main stat at their level and weaker ones they dont really use.

Maybe all this doesnt matter and 16.66667% is the right number to go for Well it is discussion after all

[doctor-warlord]

well as for what your saying the four main stats melee magic defense and recovery dont suffer any penalty if you lvl them higher then your lvl as they define your lvl though as i understand this latest change was to make sure that the lvling speed of all was evened out so people wiht low penalties dont lvl faster then people with high penalties when lvling all stats evenly

dur dur

[Glitchless]

The difference the change made is minimal but it can prevent some grief from people who are playing a group of chars or friends that are playing as a group because previously their characters would often end up a level or 2 apart as they got higher into the game. You are correct though that if you spend even time leveling all your stats you'll now end up something like 12 12 9 9 but its not too big of a deal

Actually, that's the trick. The percentages themselves don't equal out, but when you apply the adjusted bonuses/penalties to the experience gain, it results in the same differential.

If i have a +/- 20% differential, here's what happens.

I gain 1,000 XP in my +20% Stat. Earned XP: 1,200. Total change from XP bonus : +200 XP.

I gain 1,000 XP in my -20% stat. Earned XP: 800. Total change from XP penalty : -200

If I killed one mob with my +20% and one with my -20% stats active, I'd end up earning 2,000 XP -- Exactly what I'd earn if I had a 0% adjustment. The difference only seems to exist because muliplication and division are expressed differently.

The only real difference is that when other bonuses are applied (such as from group acumen), those bonuses are also increased or reduced by the bonus/penalty. If i have a 5% bonus to stat XP, it means it's a 6% bonus on my +20% stat, and a 4% bonus on my -20% stat, working from the base.

The change seems to make sense, because instead of +/- 20%, it's now multiply or divide by 1.2. That sounds like they're inverse operations, but it only works out to the same thing when applied to the product/quotient of the other in reverse order.

What we're looking for is the *additive* inverse of each operation. In this case, it's the +/- 20% that we're looking for. It's effectively expressing the multiplicative inverses in an additive way.

Glitchless was right all along with the original bonuses and penalties. Any math someone else did is just confusing you. Revert the change, because as it stands now, someone with a 20% bonus and 16.7% penalty is getting a net increase in the EXP gained over someone who has 0% change. (Or someone with smaller bonuses/penalties).

im not gonna pretend that i went to the effort of working out all the numbers but that is what i was getting at. At face value the new numbers are correct but when you think about the bigger picture the original number make much more sence. The level difference jeff is describing would only happen if a player was to level all 3 characters stats at the same time, if they staggered them based on class advantages they would level at the same rate. Thats the theory anyway.

Trust me on the math.

See, the problem is that 120% and 80% aren't inverses of each other. You can't multiply by 1.2 and then by 0.8 and get the original number. You either have to divide by 1.2, or multiply by 0.833...

However, you're not trying to do that. All the numbers are meant to accomplish is cause an additive difference in the EXP gain, which the original numbers did perfectly. You're never trying to return to the base value from the modified XP gain. What the numbers are meant to do is change the numerical XP values gained, but given the same input to each modified field, the total XP gained doesn't change.

Here's another example. I'm on my wizard (-20% melee and defense, +20% magic and recovery). This Magical Mystery Monster gives out 1,000 XP per kill before modifications. I kill him 4 times with a different stat active each time. +20% is x 1.2, -20% is x 0.8

The input value for the whole scenario is 4,000 XP.

Melee - 1,000 x 0.8 = 800 XP
Magic - 1,000 x 1.2 = 1,200 XP
Defense - 1,000 x 0.8 = 800 XP
Recovery - 1,000 x 1.2 = 1,200 XP

800 + 800 + 1,200 + 1,200 = 4,000 XP

After that, i get a total of 4,000 XP, exactly the same as the base input amount, just distributed differently because of my different bonuses and penalties. Same scenario, but with -16.7% penalties.

Melee - 1,000 x 0.83 = 833 XP
Magic - 1,000 x 1.2 = 1,200 XP
Defense - 1,000 x 0.83 = 833 XP
Recovery - 1,000 x 1.2 = 1,200 XP

833 + 833 + 1,200 + 1,200 = 4,066 XP

Now, there were 4,000 XP originally, but because of the change, I gained 66 total XP more than i was supposed to.

It's true that +20% and -20% aren't multiplicative inverses, but they result in the same additive change when applied to the same base number. The idea is that you get the same XP overall, just applied to different stats. You're not trying to return to that base number, so the original argument actually has nothing to do with the outcome of the XP values.

Once more for emphasis : The original argument surrounding the math doesn't involve the actual XP calculations! +/- 20% were fine, as they resulted in the same net gain of XP.

Going from lvl 1 to 2 requires 3000 exp.

For an old system archer:
It will take 2*3000/1.2 = 5000 Raw exp to level Melee/Magic.
It will take 2*3000/0.8 = 7500 Raw exp to level Def/Recov
Net unmodded exp to level, 12500

For the imaginary 0% char.
It will take 4*3000 = 12000 Raw exp to level all 4 stats

For the new system archer:
It will take 2*3000/0.833 = 7203 Raw Exp to level Def/Recov
5000+7203 = 12203 Raw Exp .... Not yet equal to the 0% char.

I propose that the penalty should be less, ie. 14.3% rounded. (1/7 exactly value)

14.3% system archer:
It will take 2*3000/0.857=7001
5000+7001 = 12001 Raw exp. That makes relatively even exp.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Using your example Camli, with a 1000 exp mob, old system archer.
It would take 6000/1200 = 5 kills to level up Melee/Magic
It would take 6000/800 = 7.5 kills to level up Recovery/Defense
A net 12.5 kills to level up all

For a 0% class, it would take 12000/1000 = 12 kills to level up all

New system archer:
6000/833 = 7.2 kills to level up Recovery/Defense
A net 5+7.2 = 12.2 kills to level up all

Proposed -14.3% archer:
6000/857= 7.0 kills to level up Rec/Def
A net of 5+7 = 12 kills to level up all


I am not sure about the proposed change, but one thing for sure. You did not take into the account that the negative stats will need more kills to level up because of the decreased pace. As shown above, it only takes less kills with the +20% while a -20% will take more kills.
You are correct in that the amount of EXP will be the same if you take it at its instant but you have to factor in the number of kills at a specific bonus/penalty as well.

What it comes down to is what you want homogonized.

If you intend for the same net XP after spreading it to each category, than the original values were fine.

If you intend for the same raw XP input to achieve a higher level in each, then yes, the penalties need to be reduced to be in proportion to the bonuses. In order to result in the same raw XP change, then a 1/7 penalty is proportional to the 20% bonus.

But using the example of the 1,000 XP monster, 20% bonuses/penalties, you can't achieve both levels in the 20% skills in 5 kills. It takes 6, because you can only work in increments of 1,200 XP.

So working off the wizard (20% Magic/Recovery, -20% Melee/Defense)

Magic - 3 kills (3k raw) 3,600 net XP
Recovery - 3 kills (3k raw) 3,600 net XP
Defense - 4 kills (4k raw) 3,200 net XP
Melee - 4 kills (4k raw) 3,200 net XP

We end up with a 14k raw XP input, and a net XP of 13,600. Why is this? Because we spent more time on skills with penalties than skills with bonuses.

CONCLUSION
If you want to level evenly, it's going to take more kills because you spend more time on skills with penalties than you do with bonuses.

The current system discourages keeping your stats perfectly even. The more time you spend on stats with bonuses, the more overall XP you gain. The longer you spend on a penalty skill, the less XP you gain. The problem is, you always have to spend longer on the penalty skills.

So once again, it comes down to the intent of the system.

If the intent is to keep the player's total XP the same, then keeping the bonuses and penalties at the same percentages works fine. This encourages more time spent in bonus stats than penalty stats, resulting in uneven levelling.

If the intent is to keep the player's time spent per character level (assuming even stat gains), then the modified values (using Annatar's example) will work. This encourages levelling evenly, as it will result in the fastest increases in character levels.

(That's the fun thing about this. All the math is correct, and so are all the conclusions. It's purely how you use the results that ends up with which one is correct.)

[doctor-warlord]

well i would say you lvl faster by lvling evenly then just pumping up 1 or 2 stats that have a bonus due to hell lvls and the increasing requirements for xp per lvl

My character with two -20% stats kept falling a full stat behind my other 2 character who didn't have any -20% stats. I kept having to put my other 2 characters onto class enhancement/specialization to let her catch up. And then a day or two later she'd be way behind again. I level all of my stats equally on all of my characters and they're all grouped and get the same kills and everything. Do all the math you want, that's the way it worked.
So if things are changed as Jeff said they would, she will merely be keeping up with my other 2 characters - not getting an advantage.

Originally Posted by doctor-warlord

well i would say you lvl faster by lvling evenly then just pumping up 1 or 2 stats that have a bonus due to hell lvls and the increasing requirements for xp per lvl

in the short term, long term it makes very little difference coz you get a bonus for stats below your player level

Originally Posted by Kieria

My character with two -20% stats kept falling a full stat behind my other 2 character who didn't have any -20% stats. I kept having to put my other 2 characters onto class enhancement/specialization to let her catch up. And then a day or two later she'd be way behind again. I level all of my stats equally on all of my characters and they're all grouped and get the same kills and everything. Do all the math you want, that's the way it worked.

its because you level your stats equally dude, the whole point of ths thread is to highlight that chars with large bonuses/nerfs to exp gains shouldnt be leveled equally, and if you level hem in proportion to their bonuses you wont notice any difference

[doctor-warlord]

well you dont get any bonuses penalties due to how far you lvl is of from the 4 lvl deciding stats

where as skills like class enhancement will get a penalty if you lvl it over your lvl

Originally Posted by Jerome

its because you level your stats equally dude, the whole point of ths thread is to highlight that chars with large bonuses/nerfs to exp gains shouldnt be leveled equally, and if you level hem in proportion to their bonuses you wont notice any difference

all 4 stats have important things for all classes, dude
and it would still make it more beneficial to play a character with as many 0%'s or as close to 0%'s as you could get.
Edit: this doesn't prevent you from mainly leveling the bigger bonus stats if you want to, it just allows those of us that like to keep it even to not be punished for doing so only on specific characters.

[doctor-warlord]

yeah it might get hard if you only lvl 1 stat later on but the first 5-10lvls you get i dont think it matters

[Glitchless]

You're are partially right. For example let's consider a person with +50% and -50% bonus. If he does a 100 exp kill for the one stat he'll get 150 exp and for the other he'll only get 50 exp so he's getting 200 exp total which is the same as someone without any bonuses. However, the 200 exp is not of the same long term value. He has only 50 experience in the skill that is hardest to level, and 150 in the skill thats easiest to level. He is a worse position compared to a person with an even 100/100 in each stat.

Consider the same person. Let's say it takes a normal person 1 hour to level a stat. It will take this person 40 minutes to level his +50 stat (60 minutes /1.5) and 2 hours to level his -50% stat.... That's 2 hours 40 minutes of leveling vs. 2 hours of leveling to achieve the same goal: a skill increase in two stats.

Even if the person with the +50/-50 kept his stats at 5 and 15, 25 and 75 as he leveled up he would be absolutely no where near leveling as quickly as the person without bonuses or penalties. The same applies for any such +/- bonuses or penalties.

Originally Posted by Glitchless

Even if the person with the +50/-50 kept his stats at 5 and 15, 25 and 75 as he leveled up he would be absolutely no where near leveling as quickly as the person without bonuses or penalties. The same applies for any such +/- bonuses or penalties.

Exactly, the fancy version of what I was trying to say, thank you

[doctor-warlord]

well with the new change you added today its a bit easier to lvl stats with larger penalties then before so hopefully itll make me get through 2nd hell lvl in all my stats faster

It’s occasionally best to look at things in English.

My +50% should mean it takes me half the time not 2/3’rds?
My -50% means it should take me the time and a half not double the time?
0.5 + 1.5 = 2.

This feels more natural right?

All my experience gains should be one a half stronger and half as strong respectively, are they?

With percentages you use multiplication when you don’t know the final answer, division when you do. At least that’s the rule that has got me this far =)