The case for Caster reforms.

Ok. This is not to talk about that fact that yes, you can technically be a "caster" and work on melee skills, pet skills, archery skills, or otherwise ignore your strengths/the point of being a caster.

The problem:

While i can start any melee type class, play it as a melee, get a rusted sword, a grass sword, a charred dagger, or any of many good low lvl weapons, get the HOTS spells, and focus on critical/2handed/suiting/parrying/ whatever melee related skills i want, and kick ass almost never needing to WAIT for HP/Mana/ENGR to recover, the same is not true for a caster.

A melee class can synergize it's 3 bars.

By using a super efficent HOTS spells that heal 1 HP for one mana/energy, they effectivly spread the load of damage taken in combat accross 3 bars. This allows them to focus almost exclusivly on dealing damage and defense and never have to stop to regenerate, as instead of eating 60-70 damage in a fight, they instead take 25 hp 25 mana 25 energy and recover in no time.

A caster cannot. While the HOTS is 1:1 the Caster spells are horrible in comparison of efficency.

For example, alot of the starting spells, are 11 or so mana/eng to do 1-6 damage. This translates to 11 mana to POSSIBLY do 6. Lets assume an average of 3. so 11 mana=3 damage. IF ITS NOT RESISTED.

The Flare up aura does very little to augment this effect, as it adds to the MAX possible damage, ensuring many spells still hit for 1.
Lets even be generous and say that makes a spell does an averge of 6 damage for 11 mana.

still 2:1.


This also REQUIRES flare up , so it's a pretty weak arguement for how casters play out of the gate.

Cost.

Casters are unarguably more expensive to play.

As you get more and more gem slots, to be effective you need to have 4 damage spells on average, and at least use 2 colors to make use of both of your mana pools. Melee bases don't NEED any spells, and lets say they ideally have at least 2 HOTS- which again they don't NEED to kill things effectivly, still cost less then us.

By focusing on damage magic as casters, we suffer by having only our natural hp regen rates. With the RANDOM nature of casting AND drawing of gems, we cannot do damage fast enough to mitigate the damage we take waiting for casts or good damage casts. We end up after a fight, demolished. Out of mana/energy AND HP. While the efficent, defense and offense pumped melee, laughs at us.


So whats the point of being a caster?

The idea should be, we get high damage magic, with lousy defense/melee.

Yet we suffer higher costs, cannot do higher damage reliably, and are stuck with STAVES, which are AWFUL compared to the other weapons. We lose our Shield slot for a piece of crap.

The design of how casters are supposed to work or be desireably needs to be reevaluated. Right now, if you want a damage dealer, archers and melee are so incredibly far ahead it's not even funny.

Of course, archers being unbalanced is another story.

[Glitchless]

Casters are still underpowered at low levels. There will be a buff patch in the near future to help them out primarly with damage efficiency.

[doctor-warlord]

a low lvl caster might not be that strong but the higher lvl the caster the stronger the caster gets as spells become cheaper to cast and depending on the class bonus some spells become more powerfull for example wizards do extra damage with direct damage spells

might be wrong here but whatever class it is that has a bonus to red magic would reap massive gains from the red DD enhancing Aura gem as that class would get a bonus to that gem aswell. just something to think about when picking a caster class

While i understand that they will, at some point in levels down the line be strong, that's simply not relevent. They should be playable as casters from inception to completion, and anything else is a flaw in the core concept.

Playing a caster as an archer for 25 levels is idiotic, and if that becomes the most effective way to build them then they are not right to begin with.

I look forward to any manner of tweaks to help them cope with the more steep upward climb that there progression creates.

Let's also consider, at this point, melee based classes can get a HUGE damage boost when you factor in the ability to CRITICAL and tree's that allow that to reach a potential 55% or higher possiblity.


Will Casters be given a "Critical cast" type skill to level?

There are four major problems with spellcasters right now. I'm using the items available for purchase in Castille, because that's where all my characters are sitting, haha.

1) Efficiency. Spells are hugely inefficient, especially the once-per-draw gems (in terms of damage over time). The worst part is, the efficiency doesn't get much better. Flare up aura and its kin actually make the cheaper spells more efficient than the big spells.

Green Magic 0 - 1-6 (3.5 average) for 11 mana ( 0.318 damage per mana)
Green Magic 14 - 1-16 (8.5 average) for 23 mana ( 0.37 damage per mana)

I know that damage ranges are weighted based on your int stat, but still, having a minimum damage of 1 on something that costs mana/energy... well, sucks. (This issue also exists with weapons, since the classes with min damage bonuses are basically screwed over by the 1-X and 2-X damage ranges of most weapons, but that's another issue for another day.)

2) Cost. I can buy a Slashing (14) weapon from the travel store for 2350g. The Staves (13) weapon is 1940, plus a whopping SIX THOUSAND to get twelve (Color) Magic (14) gems from the store, and leave 2 slots for escape gems. It only gets worse, because each time you level you need another gem for your bag, whereas the same weapon can last a long time.

3) Stat assignment. A caster is going to have less mana than a melee class. This is because a caster's points are going into Int and Cnc to make his spells more effective, and mSt shares the same category. Consequently, a caster still needs to deal melee damage with a staff to be competetive, so melee stat points go into Str and Dex. Compare to a melee-with-HoT gems type class, who can dump all his magic points into mSt to increase the amount of time his heal gems will last, and still use his melee points for Str and Dex.
The biggest problem, in my opinion, is that mana/energy don't increase as a character levels up. The spells will double in cost from level 1 to 14, but the player's mana/energy pools are likely to stay exactly the same, because the stats that affect these will be ignored. If i can cast 10 spells at level 1, i can still only cast 10 of those spells at level 10, unless I sacrifice spell-effectiveness by putting points into mSt instead of Int/Cnc.

4) Gem drawing. The gem system is great, but it's too random, and it's a little slow for casters.
The larger your gem bag gets, the more difficult it is to use your gems effectively. Multiple copies of gems mitigate the problem somewhat, but that solution presents its own problems. If I have 3 copies of my aura in the bag, that's 2 useless gems cycling through my draw slot once I get it out.
Say I'm level 10 and have one aura, 8 attack gems, and an escape. I only have a 51% chance of drawing flare up in my first 5 gems, if I slot each gem I draw. Again, this only gets worse as a caster levels up.
The other problem is that it takes 40 seconds (gem draws are every 8 seconds, right?) for a caster to get all 5 of his gems slotted. That's assuming lucky draws of aura + 3 recastables + 1 once-per-draw gem. You could pull an escape and 2 o-p-d gems and sit around casting nothing waiting to slot the gems you need.

I understand that casters are meant to do damage with their staves in addition to magic, but that only makes it worse, because it means that the larger portion of the caster's damage comes from his melee weapon, and at that point, you might as well just go full melee, slot HoT gems, and be like everyone else.

Cinderskin has the best point I've seen yet. You should be able to play the class you want right out of the gate, not "Casters get good around level 30, just hit things with a sword until then."

[doctor-warlord]

well i dont have problem and im a wizard i can easily match up to creatures that are up to 4lvls higher then me im lvl 17 and i can beat a lvl 21 creature on north passage alone so i dont really see the problem its correct im not effective with damage spells yet so there i only use heals and i can heal much more then most other classes due to the fact that the staves and mental conservation lowers spell cost as lvl increases in them so spell casters are pretty effective a t low lvls too maybe they are a little weaker then other classes till they reach lvl 10 but that doesnt take more then max a week anyway to get to

[Archer of Crosis]

I just want to say that I have 2 caster type classes:
an angel which i find to be high under rated, and a warlock.
I have yet to run into a problem with my caster classes, as i didnt waste any time getting melee skills up.
Couple days ago I went ahead and made 3 new chars, ones that arent popular and frowned upon to make a point. Simply put, if you're aren't a complete and utter moron, you should be able to take any class and make it great. I made a craftsman, trapper and warlock. With my warlock I bought the level 1 staff as soon as the tutorial was over, raised 2H'ed up and set staves to passive, fought like a bastard on the docks, saved up enough gold and got the level 3 staff, all before jeff revamped lower level staves and whips. I was able to 1 hit everything on the docks. The same cannot be said for the 2 other melee classes i was running at the same time, it took them 4-6 hits each.
used spirit trophies to raise magic disciplines so i could get some HoTs and dmg spells and fill up my 5 slots. I did all this with gold i earned from fights on the dock. I didn't waste skills on crushing, piercing or slashing and my staves skill is now at 12, one away from using a kick ass staff, so kick ass i still use it on my much higher leveled angel.

I think that caster classes were meant for people with brains, as idiots will get discouraged fast, its not "durr durr durr" smash away like most of the classes, so you might hurt your brain a bit while using these classes... wahhhhhhhh.

I am so literally sick of people bitching about caster class downfalls, for one all caster classes gain a huge advantage with spell casting IF they wear a staff. raise the right stats, get the right magics, like auras, dmg shields, dmg reflectors, detrimental auras, HoTs, multi use dmg spells, its not hard, and if you spend more time fighting and less time bitching you will make more then enough gold to not only outfit your angel but to buy it some kick ass items. Staves are not a hinderance, they are there to help you, and it you do it right you will do more dmg then low level melee types. Trust me.

A little less whine, a little more game....

[Glitchless]

Go here for caster buff info, the 10% base mana/energy regen idea was added:
http://forums.nodiatis.com/forums/ga...ivination.html

god your an idiot.

"I think that caster classes were meant for people with brains, as idiots will get discouraged fast, its not "durr durr durr" smash away like most of the classes, so you might hurt your brain a bit while using these classes... wahhhhhhhh."

So, not only did you start your rebuttal of my post, by insulting not only me, but all people that want to use casters, but you did it with arrogance rather then information.

Games like this, all games, ESPECIALLY GAMES IN BETA, need people brave enough to explain, with DATA, why things are imbalanced to paint a picture. The developers, who are too busy codeing to be able to playtest endlessly, then can evaluate the game to make it better.

The power build right now, is archers. WHY? because they do big damage and kill very efficently.

What if not everyone wants to be archers? Do you suppose jeff coded the game with all these classes, so that only one style of play would ever be viable?

of course not.

So myself, and Camli, post very detailed explainations of the flaws and weaknesses inherent in the current caster system when compared to all the other options, and what do you bring to the discussion?

"If you can't be awesome with casters, your a noob, i pwnz0r you, fag."

I rest my case.

I'm not here to argue with dopes about the game, i want to see casters made viable, that's all. You made it personal.

-Cinder

[Glitchless]

Keep in mind people, the caster skill trees are still fairly undeveloped and have a lot more holes than the melee skill trees. They'll undoubtedly get stronger as more skills fill up.

[doctor-warlord]

i will have to agree to some of what archer of crosis said that it does require more brains to use casters and crafting chars as there skills and requirements are in several areas so yeah its harder then being a melee or arhcer char but not by much

secondly from what jeff said then they will be more balanced when he has added some of those skills he says is still needed

[Archer of Crosis]

Originally Posted by cinderskin

god your an idiot.

"I think that caster classes were meant for people with brains, as idiots will get discouraged fast, its not "durr durr durr" smash away like most of the classes, so you might hurt your brain a bit while using these classes... wahhhhhhhh."

So, not only did you start your rebuttal of my post, by insulting not only me, but all people that want to use casters, but you did it with arrogance rather then information.

Games like this, all games, ESPECIALLY GAMES IN BETA, need people brave enough to explain, with DATA, why things are imbalanced to paint a picture. The developers, who are too busy codeing to be able to playtest endlessly, then can evaluate the game to make it better.

The power build right now, is archers. WHY? because they do big damage and kill very efficently.

What if not everyone wants to be archers? Do you suppose jeff coded the game with all these classes, so that only one style of play would ever be viable?

of course not.

So myself, and Camli, post very detailed explainations of the flaws and weaknesses inherent in the current caster system when compared to all the other options, and what do you bring to the discussion?

"If you can't be awesome with casters, your a noob, i pwnz0r you, fag."

I rest my case.

I'm not here to argue with dopes about the game, i want to see casters made viable, that's all. You made it personal.

-Cinder

first off, like i said before , i find no issues with casters
none at all
second of all if YOU'RE going to call someone an idiot, trying using spell check, because you only succeed in making yourself look even more foolish than before.
thirdly, I wasnt referring to anyone in particular, and if you took offense to what i said, i apologize, that wasn't my attention.
fourthly i did not nor have i ever personally attacked you or camli , it was you that took it personal, for which im slightly confused.
why is it that only your opinion matters, i felt that casters were fine, and i was sounding off my opinions, i wasn't even quoting or commenting on anything directly that was said before me.

if you had actually read what i said instead of focusing on one small part of my post, where yes i did throw a punch at idiots, you would have seen that i was actually telling people to use staves and not waste time on melee based weapons. *sigh* if you're not an idiot, you have nothing to worry about, do you?
and i never called anyone a fag, nor would i degrade myself to using leet or netspeak in a serious post.

IF you had read what i said, you would have seen i was commenting on the people bitching about the caster class, not people like you and camli who are obviously trying to come up with better ideas.

I think you owe me an apology quite frankly, as i was only commenting on how great i thought casters already were. i never even commented on anything you said at all.... help me out here, what or who exactly pooped in your cereal hun?

want me to hunt them down and abolish them? cause i will :P I'll effing do it man.

sidebar: neato new skill jeff

A little honesty here, really.

"I think you owe me an apology quite frankly, as i was only commenting on how great i thought casters already were. i never even commented on anything you said at all.... help me out here, what or who exactly pooped in your cereal hun?"

I started the thread, so making a mockery of the fact that casters are handicapped was mocking me. I refuse to be sucked into a sematic arguement about if you called me stupid, or just ALL PEOPLE WHO THINK CASTERS ARE HARDER TO USE, stupid as its a waste of time.

I just want a level playing field, and without not only more caster related benifits (divination will not cut it alone) casters will always be just this micro debate within a larger debate.
a waste of time.

When spell casting costs get better, or damage gets better, or auras that boost the MINIMUM damages start appearing so as to boost mana/erg effieceny, then we may be on to something.

also, again,

where are caster critcals?

[Archer of Crosis]

w/e dude be all butt hurt about it, idea nazi

guess only ideas that agree with yours are relevant in this thread, everyone else , like me who thinks casters are fine and not handicapped. should just gtfo right?
I mean i guess you started this thread just to read your own font, because like i said 3 times now, I FIND NOTHING WRONG WITH CASTERS, I DO NOT THINK THEY ARE HANDICAPPED. like jeff said you havent even seen the other tiers of skills for casters, yes i understand you feel there needs to be more balance. Good for you really. I feel that they are fine the way they are. This is my opinion.
and yes , like jeff said there could be more skills added. No one is contesting this, i just feel that casters are getting a bad rap, when they arent really that bad at all.
so really , lets have some honesty here, like how bout you honestly try to entertain more than your own ideals....

Casters are NOT fine in their current incarnation. There's plenty of proof to back it up. If you don't have anything to contribute to the ideas, for whatever reason, then don't post in the thread. If you have something to say about a particular idea, maybe why it's unbalanced, or a way to improve it, by all means.

But this is NOT the place to complain. If you think that the caster playstyle is fine, so be it. Post in the general discussion forum, start a poll, etc. The idea here is to get ideas flowing, not stifle them by shooting down the very notion that a suggestion is necessary.

The biggest problem though, is that your point of view apparently comes from having a single offensive caster in the very early levels. You give anecdotal evidence of "Oh i was one shotting mobs on the docks". They have 8 HP. EIGHT HIT POINTS. Now, try fighting the ogre with a staff and offensive spells. Now after you die, try again after loading up with healing spells.

I guess my point is, don't jump in here and rant about how much you hate people complaining. If you have some thoughts on the ideas presented here, post them, but do so in a constructive manner. Your initial post carried an extremely condescending tone. You speak as if every other player in the game shares your opinion, and give no real data to contradict that given by myself and cinderskin.

tl;dr -- Chill out, and keep the bitching to a different forum, please.

[Archer of Crosis]

Originally Posted by Camli

Casters are NOT fine in their current incarnation. There's plenty of proof to back it up. If you don't have anything to contribute to the ideas, for whatever reason, then don't post in the thread. If you have something to say about a particular idea, maybe why it's unbalanced, or a way to improve it, by all means.

But this is NOT the place to complain. If you think that the caster playstyle is fine, so be it. Post in the general discussion forum, start a poll, etc. The idea here is to get ideas flowing, not stifle them by shooting down the very notion that a suggestion is necessary.

The biggest problem though, is that your point of view apparently comes from having a single offensive caster in the very early levels. You give anecdotal evidence of "Oh i was one shotting mobs on the docks". They have 8 HP. EIGHT HIT POINTS. Now, try fighting the ogre with a staff and offensive spells. Now after you die, try again after loading up with healing spells.

I guess my point is, don't jump in here and rant about how much you hate people complaining. If you have some thoughts on the ideas presented here, post them, but do so in a constructive manner. Your initial post carried an extremely condescending tone. You speak as if every other player in the game shares your opinion, and give no real data to contradict that given by myself and cinderskin.

tl;dr -- Chill out, and keep the bitching to a different forum, please.

one, and this is the last effing time im gonna say this......
I never disagreed with anything you and your butthurt little friend had to say, two im not complaining
three im not trying to stifle anyones little creativity in any way, if YOU and your little butthurt friend feel casters need more help go for it, really
i dont give a ****, i was voicing my opinion on casters, and im entiltled to it,
fourthly, i dont give a ****
okay
got it now
i wont post again here so dont bother replying
how the **** is anyone going to get anywhere constructively if you cant even entertain other peoples opinions even if they differ from yours? further more i believe that people have agreed with me in this very thread.

Originally Posted by Archer of Crosis

I think that caster classes were meant for people with brains, as idiots will get discouraged fast, its not "durr durr durr" smash away like most of the classes, so you might hurt your brain a bit while using these classes... wahhhhhhhh.

I am so literally sick of people bitching about caster class downfalls.

A little less whine, a little more game....

This is complaining.

The only opinion that really matters here is Jeff, because he's the guy who runs the game. If you have ideas, share them. If you don't like an idea, it doesn't really matter. If a lot of people dislike an idea, it does, because then it impacts a larger portion of the player base. Hence, start a poll.

The problem isn't that you want to share your opinion, its that you're attempting to completely invalidate the opinions of myself and others, namely cinderskin. You don't address any of the points we post about, instead claiming things like --

Originally Posted by Archer of Crosis

for one all caster classes gain a huge advantage with spell casting IF they wear a staff

I mean, hey, I haven't seen the level 20+ caster skills yet, but the advantages of using a staff from 1-19 are:
Reduced energy cost on spells
Reduced mana cost on spells
Gem draw haste
and just now - 10% mana/energy regen in combat + chance of gem at start of battle

What you lose is the much higher damage output of either a 2h melee weapon or a bow, or the large armor class + blocking benefits of a shield.

See, look, I refute a point of your argument with evidence, and data. Now get off your high horse and try to realize that you barged into this thread posting about how sick you are about the complaints about casters. If you want to refute our points or explain why you feel casters are balanced, then do so, using facts, examples, and data, rather than vague ideas like "get the right gems, auras, hots, etc." because...

Well, I, too, am done trying to refute your statements. You seem to use the term 'butthurt' a lot, but I'm simply trying to argue a case and ask you to be constructive. I'm not the one swearing in my posts and stating that I'm done posting here, etc. etc.

But seriously, chill out, and stop being so self-important. Maybe contribute some actual ideas instead of a pointless argument.

----

But hey what about a major buff to spells, but if you're not using a staff, they're a lot less effective. Like say a spell does 1-6 right now. Make it 5-30, but it's only 20% as effective if you're not using a staff. Balance staff melee damage to compensate for this, add a skill that helps bring up the damage of the spells when you're not using a staff (say to 30 or 40% of the staff-enhanced damage at lvl 100). Now the spell still does 1-6 damage if you're a melee fighter or an archer, but casters are able to do real damage with their spells, because hey, they're WIZARDS.