Advoidance Gem line Imbalance

[Glitchless]

This is being approached as a balance debate. These are the balance suggestion guidelines:
https://forums.nodiatis.com/forums/s...398#post202398
According to those guidelines, there will not be much weight given to the complaint that a hard counter exists in PvP versus the #1 PvE build.

And even so, I'm not entirely convinced that the counter is as hard as stated. Preventing the occasional cast is not the problem, it's that your build is so susceptible to going irrecoverably out of mana. If you won't want to be vulnerable to this pitfall, you'd need to compromise your build, possibly significantly (as do many other builds), so that this is no longer the case. Asinine high MRE was suggested and could work. Being an Arcanist for their CA would help. But even if none of those work, you'd still be using the #1 PvE build in PvP and getting to top 10...


All that being said, given the history of these irksome gems (prevents), and the fact that they were previously such a nuisance that they got an LG staff made specifically to beat them down, those arguing for them to be further nerfed would have a better chance using the "this is an unfun mechanic" route rather than the balance debate.

It is tempting to consider the following change in between next seasons: 1) reduce the % success rate of prevents by half and 2) allow the new Dex/Cnc aura mechanic to work in PvP. The result would be the softening of this hated prevent-based counter mechanic, and a new way for noncasters to use gems in PvP effectively--with gems actually in play and not relying on spamming cheap deft recovery gems. Feel free to give commentary on this proposition.

[Nemesiss]

Originally Posted by Sanlucifer

nemesis

hmmmmmm nice word choice.... also 1k agi with other supplements makes a bm pretty useless. with koks that is. perhaps where a prowler class comes in handy. this was before i left for a long while however, could be diff now.

[Conqueror]

If the discourage jeweling rank 7 gem (djr7) had been designed to be 20% effective from the beginning, I doubt that anybody would have given it a second thought. But seeing as the djr7 gem was 90% effective and has already been debuffed to 70% efficacy, a further reduction would be deeply unpopular. I too, occasionally lament this aforementioned reduction.

Furthermore, the gem color was changed to grey (this took away the increased draw chance from the replay skill) and the requisite mana and energy cost of these gems was increased (the 28 energy and 28 mana requirement was increased to 48 energy and 48 mana).

I do not support any additional nerfing of these gems. I agree that people are overstating the effectiveness of the dj gem line here. In the linked video for example, Ubeisea is using do-unto and incidental redirection gems (these are not "prevent" gems and do not completely negate the damage). Being able to utilize a full prevent pouch is a strategy in and of itself. It requires the appropriate stats, runes, gems and gear. Discounting that effort by listing the cost of the dj gems is not a fair analysis in my opinion as it doesn't take into account the entire setup and the opportunity cost.

With all that said, I cannot say how fair or unfair these gems are objectively. I have no way of running an impartial test that can account for all of the variables. My point of view, like everybody else's, is biased. If the efficacy of the dj gem line needs to be reduced further, making them blue again and reducing the mana and energy requirement to cast them should be considered. My vote however, is to just leave them alone.

Thank you. I have not posted in a while but I continue to enjoy this great game.

[Sanluciferr]

I do not think prevents are the real issue here, i wouldn't like them to be nerfed either... that is why i am not trying to use the balance thread thingy as a reference to any potential balance...

BUT just to be clear in which position i find this whole situation would be:

iv. Note our goal is to temper the extremes, not help an already-powerful build completely stomp a build that threatens it. The weakest builds deserve counters against the best. The ones already at the top do not.

Whip/Pets shouldnt have access to prevent lines the way they are, if this is the case then it shouldnt be too easy for them. Casters dps come literally per second and by adding/drawing 1 prevent gem they lose massive dps , unlike the rest. Not to mention that you use ur limited finite source getting prevented. (This is the dilemma that Mishba is having issues understanding or accepting)

v. When reporting a build as underpowered you should provide evidence that it is weaker than the other weakest builds. If there are other builds less powerful, they deserve help sooner.

DDs deserve it WAY more than dotters atm.

And to finish my brainstorming venting, DDs on top of all get super diminished in damage by CNT + AC , unlike dots. AGI does not mitigate the damage of melee ,range or pets.

Staff is super strong but every day when everyone eventually gets more and more hp , dotters wont shine like they do now and dds wont exist.

[flipynifty]

don't buff double cast builds... they are already stupid broken

[Freakymagic]

Couple thoughts for people.

In 1v1 prevent gems are always a hot topic. IMO they are not an issue anymore. Dots have a lot of options to be countered with. As and archer i beat all the top doters laughably easy without using prevents. Bms could do the same. THEY CHOOSE to use prevents because its easier for them to be effective vs a wider range of builds instead of JUST full countering doters. AS A DOTER that is the choice you make. YOU 100% WRECK people who dont hard counter you. IF THEY DO hard counter you, the doter gets wrecked. This is nothing new, only the method used as things change and are added. in the 1st 1v1 masterarcher made a full suit swap to go archer to deal with prevent users. Thats an option every dbl doter / staff doter has.

In 3v3's prevents are never an issue. They have uses and those who use them well get bonus's from doing so while it not being op. (example prevents for a taunt gap to blow up a dpser). To use them effectively takes teamwork and planning. Things that i hope dont get nerfed to the ground/removed from premade arena.

I really like the dex or cnc for pve. Im not a fan of it for pvp though. 1v1 sure it helps the melee/bms not a huge issue. Bigger issue is for 3v3 and premade. As it is now if you need to run reaper or sloth, you need an archer or caster to land it reliably. If you have a pure melee team thats a trade off you have. OR you have to invest cnc on the healer/melee toon and have them run it and have a few less heal gems or less dps/def stats. Personally i like having the different trade offs to run important gems like reaper. If dex is available to be used for pvp its now just 100% used by every toon and its never a trade off / decision on whats the better move.


Nod imo is fairly balanced. dd, dot, bm, melee, archer, doesent matter what you are, you have a fighting chance vs most everyone (some maybe more viable then others BUT its not a 100% this is the best build.) Some builds hard counter others OR have hard counters available. ITS UP TO THE PLAYER to figure out how to beat their builds counter.

You have to be consistently adapting to be beating the top people AS IT SHOULD BE imo. Its not 1 build beats all. Its not I get this build, I get these teirs, and I beat everyone but the same build which is rng. You have to have different strategies and setups for different opponents. If thats different pouchs, weapon swaps, armor swaps, rune swaps, etc etc.

[Demons]

except for bm apparently all they need is 1 set of koks, same basic bowset as every other bm, a pair of stalkers, dt gear and a anti mage pouch. for a bm 1 pouch is adapting to beat dotters the way ubei is. but your suggesting dotters change whole suits and weapons and dmg types?
okay. like i said. a dotter goes archer to counter the prevents, you either rely on vamp or regen. your already taking a significant dps loss. and not out dps'ing your opponent, who has 40%+ vamp. so vamp seems stupid option.
and regen, bm's change to fleshies and regen is nothing. no way the significatly less dps will beat the fleshie bm

[Zodrack]

is not like those who are succesful on prevents run tier 1 items...couse from what i understand thats what u saying

i am gonna try to buy 2 x t1 koks and 2xt1 stalkers....get some rubish lg set from store and have a full pouch of prevents...im open for 100 duels with this setup to see how much truth is in it

[paulodjohn]

Prevents were a mess in the past. I think they are fine now. Its a combination of things that makes them beat dots.

[flipynifty]

I think its more a "I spent a ton of money and should never lose" post

[Tsutsu]

Originally Posted by Zodrack

is not like those who are succesful on prevents run tier 1 items...couse from what i understand thats what u saying

i am gonna try to buy 2 x t1 koks and 2xt1 stalkers....get some rubish lg set from store and have a full pouch of prevents...im open for 100 duels with this setup to see how much truth is in it

^ it's not some noob tiered toon beating you with prevents, its someone with similar/higher tiers than you have.

[Lakki]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

This is being approached as a balance debate. These are the balance suggestion guidelines:
https://forums.nodiatis.com/forums/s...398#post202398
According to those guidelines, there will not be much weight given to the complaint that a hard counter exists in PvP versus the #1 PvE build.

And even so, I'm not entirely convinced that the counter is as hard as stated. Preventing the occasional cast is not the problem, it's that your build is so susceptible to going irrecoverably out of mana. If you won't want to be vulnerable to this pitfall, you'd need to compromise your build, possibly significantly (as do many other builds), so that this is no longer the case. Asinine high MRE was suggested and could work. Being an Arcanist for their CA would help. But even if none of those work, you'd still be using the #1 PvE build in PvP and getting to top 10...


All that being said, given the history of these irksome gems (prevents), and the fact that they were previously such a nuisance that they got an LG staff made specifically to beat them down, those arguing for them to be further nerfed would have a better chance using the "this is an unfun mechanic" route rather than the balance debate.

It is tempting to consider the following change in between next seasons: 1) reduce the % success rate of prevents by half and 2) allow the new Dex/Cnc aura mechanic to work in PvP. The result would be the softening of this hated prevent-based counter mechanic, and a new way for noncasters to use gems in PvP effectively--with gems actually in play and not relying on spamming cheap deft recovery gems. Feel free to give commentary on this proposition.

Well I restoned my setup to have 824 MRE. I can confirm it does help, slightly.

But the issue is that you get prevented too much, and the prevents are pulled too quickly from the FDA haste bonus. double-casters need to deft cast, when the speed of the enemy pulling the prevents is the same as you, you lose.

If your thraki arrow misses and you get stunned even once in the fight, the chances of winning are basically none.

If the enemy pulls a fda or rule of law, the haste bonus added to their gems already makes the double-caster lose the gem casting battle if the dc caster does not pull an FDA.

with that being said, I'll improve and hopefully Mishba and norms Dc toon does too. We highly enjoy playing as dc-casters in the arena, and quite frankly i feel the top 10-16 is pretty diverse at the moment in terms of classes in it.

I'll do my best to adapt to PvP, As a Dc-caster I've tried, but if i feel it doesn't work I will probably transition to staff for the versatility in certain matchups later on If I still can't figure it out.

Thanks for taking the time to look at this from the most level-headed point of view. Regardless if you buff, nerf, or change, I'll do my best to adapt to the given situation.

[Freakymagic]

Originally Posted by Demons

except for bm apparently all they need is 1 set of koks, same basic bowset as every other bm, a pair of stalkers, dt gear and a anti mage pouch. for a bm 1 pouch is adapting to beat dotters the way ubei is. but your suggesting dotters change whole suits and weapons and dmg types?
okay. like i said. a dotter goes archer to counter the prevents, you either rely on vamp or regen. your already taking a significant dps loss. and not out dps'ing your opponent, who has 40%+ vamp. so vamp seems stupid option.
and regen, bm's change to fleshies and regen is nothing. no way the significatly less dps will beat the fleshie bm

Bms naturally counter dbl doters. 20% from bear hide is a big bonus to mitigating doters dmg on top of bms do high dmg with high thefts/vamps while being able to run high cnt. Bm's "shouldnt" be just running 1 setup, but most due from being lazy and it working against most people. Imo they are the "op" build since they teir extremely well and are harder to counter then doters are.. However, you can easily swap a couple pieces and try fighting them as an archer, can get a staff, different pouch, there are bunch of different options for you to use.

[Nemesiss]

sometimes when the stars align and the moon shines just right the issue is with the player and not the game

[Demons]

if changing gear set ups is what is needed. may i suggest that if you swap your 2h weapon for a staff, the bowset automatically be removed? removing them piece by piece is shiet. either that or give us 4th / 5th equipment sets.

[Lakki]

Originally Posted by Demons

if changing gear set ups is what is needed. may i suggest that if you swap your 2h weapon for a staff, the bowset automatically be removed? removing them piece by piece is shiet. either that or give us 4th / 5th equipment sets.

strongly support

[flipynifty]

is this a buff dcdot thread? I don't see many other ppl with diff builds giving it the time of day

[Demons]

more equip sets, or auto taking off bowset when equiping a staff could help any build not just dc dot <_<

[Mishba]

I?ve been wrapped up in RL stuff and haven?t had the time to readdress this thread. When I posted it I knew what 80% + of the replies would look like. I can truly say the majority of the respondents did not surprise me (sadly).

The post itself only had 1 real question that was the heart of the entire post. ?As I still consider myself a noob, I could be missing something here and this is in place for a reason, if so please help me understand it please? ? Only 1 person answered this question in any meaningful way, Thanks! With his posting I now know why the gem line is in place.

I acknowledge the gem servers a useful purpose used as normal tool, it can help balance the fight to make it go either way, but to use it to it?s extreme as I laid out in my original post, it is also exploitable to the point to force a Shafter out of his intended build.

To keep this as short as possible, I knew about the Marq staff weeks before I posted and the point of my testing was to see a straight Shafter build could overcome a green gem. While I know now why the gem was originally create, I will still argue that the extreme use of prevents is the only case where you can drive a specific build to another build. And because of the Core Imbalance (which no one wants to even discuss) makes the melee and range versions of these nothing more than a nuisance on any level.

If a green gem line forced a BM to move from his whips to dual wielding whatever and took away what makes him a BM the outcry would be endless. The same could be said for the WW Build, give me a green gem that could be loaded by a staff caster and let them eat a few of their 30K openers and the outcry would be endless!!!

Do I think the gem needs to be nerfed, not for normal use. It still provides a needed function. Does the extreme end of that use need to be figured out, well if you ask the one using the gem it?s no and the one it?s being use against its yes. But if you can look past the two sides of the coin you might figure it out. Most of you are stuck in an auto response mode and lost all ability to look beyond your coins side.

Will I pursue any changes? No, I?m done with it after this post. I?ve wasted far too much time on this issue. IMO this was botched a long time ago. If casters where that far out of balanced the core build should have been adjusted not items.

Brookeland ? While I might disagree with some of the info provided in your post, I wanted to say thanks for being a decent person, proving we can disagree and be civil at the same time.

Sanluciferr ? Thanks for answering my question and your coherent expansion on what I was attempting point out.

TSU ? Thanks for the mre suggestion. I did try it, the 800+ all but broke my toon, loss of over 6k hps, and drove other needed stats to near nonfunctional, I lost most of the matches I won prior. So your, along with others, suggestion prior to my testing is the only viable solution. Thanks again.

For those who suggested that the gem line was under powered and need to be enhanced, it?s all spelled out for you on how to abuse them, if you are too lazy to adjust your build to do it, then that?s on you. But to have the nerve to blast everyone that posted against this gem saying they are inflexible and only looking for an easy button and then suggest enhancing a proven exploitable gem to make it easier for you is beyond hypocrisy.

[Glitchless]

Originally Posted by Mishba

But to have the nerve to blast everyone that posted against this gem saying they are inflexible and only looking for an easy button and then suggest enhancing a proven exploitable gem to make it easier for you is beyond hypocrisy.

Hard to argue with that. ^

Originally Posted by Mishba

And because of the Core Imbalance (which no one wants to even discuss)...

I do think that continuing to call the fact that casters rely on a limited resource to do damage and other builds do not a "core imbalance" is not beneficial to your argument or ability to remain Spock-like in your analysis. It's a core difference. Core differences are absolutely necessary to make the various builds unique and interesting. If a core difference can be exploited so thoroughly that it makes a build nonviable or overpowered, then we adjust other things to tip the scales in a more central direction - but we would never consider forcing all builds to rely on mana/energy in the same way.