Potential prowler changes?

[Tsutsu]

Originally Posted by Qratos

I like the fact that everyone in this thread has tried Prowler so far to put their input on it.

Don't have to run the class to know it's a good class, the one thing bms were missing was hit chance, now they have that. Ontop of other benefits from the class...

[paulodjohn]

Glitchless,

Just wondering about the prowler 75% miti to disease dot damage. I think this is madly unfair.

My reasons being that it is already pretty easy to counter dots, this is seconded by the top PvP players in game, just ask them.

75% miti to a class's main source of damage renders them pretty useless v a prowler. This is even the case without trying to counter disease dots that bad.

You can argue to change pouches or builds, as a staff dot you are limited to change to only another staff class, otherwise you get a 20 second stun and will more than likely be dead. Im not even going to mention going dd as it is useless v the power of cnt in 1v1. (This debate is for another thread)

Even if you do manage to change gears and pouches to lets say a poison dot build (going from full pre no mre to more parts mre is not easy considering all stat points are allocated into pre as a disease dot build).

Best case scenario you do manage to change to a poison dot (with far from optimal stats) by changing your pouch you lose all your auras, which matters a great deal. You start well on the back foot. You try draw you auras back but your opponent has weasels so shatters every 30 seconds. Its a losing battle.

Not to mention you need duplicate set of auras. Takes up a full rune set and gem pouch. The sheer amount of stuff you need just to be able to have a "chance" at having a decent fight versus a prowler is ridiculous in my opinion.

Can people with a bit of experience in PvP please give your opinions on this.

[Glitchless]

https://forums.nodiatis.com/forums/s...398#post202398

For any request or post suggesting that a change should be made for balance purposes you must:

Specify the build or build combo (multiple suits/pouches) that you feel is either overpowered or underpowered, and specify PvP or PvE. Only then can you proceed with your evidence.

i. Note that it is natural for some builds to be good at some things and weak at others. Reporting a build that is weak in PvE that already does very well in PvP is not likely to result in any changes.

ii. Note that it is natural for some builds to be weak against others. Demonstrating that some build "B" never does well against build "A" is not an indication that build "A" is overpowered.

iii. Note any build being reported is overpowered in PvP should have a presence on the arena tops lists of the current or recent seasons. Likewise, any build being reported as underpowered in PvP should be rather absent from the arena tops.

iv. Note our goal is to temper the extremes, not help an already-powerful build completely stomp a build that threatens it. The weakest builds deserve counters against the best. The ones already at the top do not.

v. When reporting a build as underpowered you should provide evidence that it is weaker than the other weakest builds. If there are other builds less powerful, they deserve help sooner.

vi. When reporting a build as overpowered you should provide evidence that it is better than the other most powerful builds. If there are other builds clearly more powerful, they deserve to have counters first.

[paulodjohn]

I did specify the build that is op. its not actually a build which makes it even worse... Its a class that makes disease dots do 75% less damage. This is a whipper class (PROWLER) this 75% reduction in disease damage is over powered against anyone using disease dots.

(overpowered class is prowler, BUT only v disease dot users i.e the underpowered)

Add this to the skill BEAR HIDE (reduces the potency of all DOT gems by 5%, this is doubled for each whip you have equipped for a maximum of 20%). Add in miti or other stuff w/e I dont know the exact math but I would like to know how much a disease dot would actually do to a prowler in terms of % of their full damage, maybe 10%? or 5%? I dont know but something silly. Someone with the math let us know?


i) I understand some builds are better suited to PvE and some to PvP. Staff dot is in my opinion near the bottom in terms of PvE (I would never farm with it), PvP speaking Staff dot can be pretty good, but it can also be countered very well by the right people. Melee, archer, bm, doesnt really matter what build. Besides other staff/gem focused toons. People with the right know how will counter dots pretty effectively. So speaking in terms of top PvP people dots are not too great. In PvE staff dot is well under average.

ii) Natural for some classes to be weak v others, fair enough. Instead of being weak disease dots are useless v prowler. If you change the weak to useless then my argument is invalid.

iii) These legendary classes are new, so prowlers are not on any recent arena leader board. But I guarantee you they will be very present this season and future seasons. I am not entirely sure but the last x2 seasons staff dot was not represented in the top 10 (yes I used it in anon 3v3 but I was mainly healer, other toons were similar) It could go back further but again I am not sure. But again I do NOT want a staff dot buff. Just fix the prowler 75% reduction in disease dots.

iv) In my opinion a class taking 75% less damage to another's main source of damage is an extreme. Whippers are far from weak, there is already tons of counters for dots. the class effect from prowler is just a guarantee win button v disease dots.

v) I dont know any other build in nod that has 75% of their damage reduced by another build. There is none. No even close.

vi) There is no other build combos in the game that are as one sided as prowlers v disease using toons. I am not saying prowler is the most op class or build, i am not sure, it could be. This is more of a class v disease dot problem

Hopefully someone with math can crunch the numbers for us.

I am not looking for a dot buff or other build nerfs. Just this 75% less disease damage the prowler has is unnecessary. The class is well good enough without that.

[Lakki]

Originally Posted by paulodjohn

I did specify the build that is op. its not actually a build which makes it even worse... Its a class that makes disease dots do 75% less damage. This is a whipper class (PROWLER) this 75% reduction in disease damage is over powered against anyone using disease dots.

(overpowered class is prowler, BUT only v disease dot users i.e the underpowered)

Add this to the skill BEAR HIDE (reduces the potency of all DOT gems by 5%, this is doubled for each whip you have equipped for a maximum of 20%). Add in miti or other stuff w/e I dont know the exact math but I would like to know how much a disease dot would actually do to a prowler in terms of % of their full damage, maybe 10%? or 5%? I dont know but something silly. Someone with the math let us know?


i) I understand some builds are better suited to PvE and some to PvP. Staff dot is in my opinion near the bottom in terms of PvE (I would never farm with it), PvP speaking Staff dot can be pretty good, but it can also be countered very well by the right people. Melee, archer, bm, doesnt really matter what build. Besides other staff/gem focused toons. People with the right know how will counter dots pretty effectively. So speaking in terms of top PvP people dots are not too great. In PvE staff dot is well under average.

ii) Natural for some classes to be weak v others, fair enough. Instead of being weak disease dots are useless v prowler. If you change the weak to useless then my argument is invalid.

iii) These legendary classes are new, so prowlers are not on any recent arena leader board. But I guarantee you they will be very present this season and future seasons. I am not entirely sure but the last x2 seasons staff dot was not represented in the top 10 (yes I used it in anon 3v3 but I was mainly healer, other toons were similar) It could go back further but again I am not sure. But again I do NOT want a staff dot buff. Just fix the prowler 75% reduction in disease dots.

iv) In my opinion a class taking 75% less damage to another's main source of damage is an extreme. Whippers are far from weak, there is already tons of counters for dots. the class effect from prowler is just a guarantee win button v disease dots.

v) I dont know any other build in nod that has 75% of their damage reduced by another build. There is none. No even close.

vi) There is no other build combos in the game that are as one sided as prowlers v disease using toons. I am not saying prowler is the most op class or build, i am not sure, it could be. This is more of a class v disease dot problem

Hopefully someone with math can crunch the numbers for us.

I am not looking for a dot buff or other build nerfs. Just this 75% less disease damage the prowler has is unnecessary. The class is well good enough without that.

I agree, prowler bm's are the best in solo arena at the given moment and i'm sure are par in regular formats. in regards to the disease dot damage reduction, i'm going to flat out say it makes no sense, the 30% heal bonus makes enough of a difference to kill dotters of any gems just fine imo

It may be a natural thing for BM's to be a counter to dotters, if that is the case fine, but making a damage source do 10% of its original scaling is again, silly. Even the toad gem+toad reducing bleeds doesn't even reduce the DPS of any build this hard, and that gem counters several physical damage builds.

Were bm's getting wtfpwnt by disease dotters that hard in prior seasons to warrant a class that makes a damage source to them negligible? I personally always felt the matchups were pretty 50/50, either A. The bm runs prevents/imp/vacc, until bonus, then pops on rabid and splats the dotter. or B. The dotter heals up, gets some big ticks on the bm and ruptures it in bonus.

I don't personally run diseases, but I am also curious as to why they do practically no damage at all to a particular build, for no apparent reason. O.o

[Huggles]

Originally Posted by Tsutsu

Don't have to run the class to know it's a good class, the one thing bms were missing was hit chance, now they have that. Ontop of other benefits from the class...

Hit chance was always an option if you didn't use double koks, especially with haste being added on most whips later on.

[Tsutsu]

Originally Posted by Huggles

Hit chance was always an option if you didn't use double koks, especially with haste being added on most whips later on.

obviously, but now you dont have to sacrifice the dps of koks to gain the hit chance.

[Zodrack]

Originally Posted by Qratos

I like the fact that everyone in this thread has tried Prowler so far to put their input on it.

exactly

i told lakki few times...play a bm in high end pve and top arena matches...then swicth to a prowler and compare it...as a prowler i never sayd the class is garbage..i just say prowler compared to bm is garbage...if prowler was suposed to be the legendary upgrade for bm then big fail...if prowler wanted to be a class similar to bm then ok...cant say nothing

while bm can chose multiple options for a secondary class and still keep his dps the prowler is kinda forced to chose bm as secondary if they wanna have some dps...chosing any other class as secondary will just make you a rubish common farmer

and about the opener Lakki...i dont do those openers as you say i do...vs you at least i have the highest chance to start with those among other ppl...in top 10 atm i dont think i do as you say prowler is doing....but what do i know? ur the prowler not me..i dont see brooke complaining about prowler...or BP...or Ubeisea...or mishba...i constantly lose vs them...and mostly win vs you...so yea ur point of bitching about this class is well pointed,as a pet user i am not happy about it either...but alltogheter is a good farmer,prowler+bm is like bm...and before u say is a huge dps increase let me tell you this...prowler+bm i do like 4.4k max in fonr ...while as bm+dk +pala + vamp+ advent+ tact or any other class i was doing 4.3k in same area..and rarely 4.4k...long live the most so called op class...but i can say i farm a bit faster..not sure about it couse is not noticeable

[Tsutsu]

I'm having exactly 0 issues with prowler in pve, or pvp.

Time your fights in fonr as a bm/whatever, then time your fights as a prowler/bm. I gurantee its quite a significant difference.

[Zodrack]

Originally Posted by Tsutsu

I'm having exactly 0 issues with prowler in pve, or pvp.

Time your fights in fonr as a bm/whatever, then time your fights as a prowler/bm. I gurantee its quite a significant difference.

i am gonna say it for last time

i am not saying prowler is not a good class
all my observations and argues come from the comparison of prowler vs bm...and for that comparison i need to consider adding two classes togheter ( legendary class + common class) to provide basicaly what a single common class provides, with a bit of improvement

so my question is...how a legendary class can be so OP if it needs another class just to match a non legendary class?

[Zodrack]

and btw top 10 arena have the following classes

3 werewolfs
1 prowler
1 beastmaster
5 DOT based classes( sadly i cant write this line bigger and flashier)

kinda says everything about how weak dot`s are,no wonder they( certain ppl) complain about it

[Tsutsu]

Originally Posted by Zodrack

i am gonna say it for last time

i am not saying prowler is not a good class
all my observations and argues come from the comparison of prowler vs bm...and for that comparison i need to consider adding two classes togheter ( legendary class + common class) to provide basicaly what a single common class provides, with a bit of improvement

so my question is...how a legendary class can be so OP if it needs another class just to match a non legendary class?

It's because it is in certain situations much better than the BM class can ever become

[Sanluciferr]

The real issue is not the legendary class , this legendary class is just the cherry on top, the over kill the extra 110%.

Beast masters are already the dotters nemesis so i couldnt understand that 75% miti of those dots.... until of course i realize that it was so obvious that it wasnt funny, its an statement, do not use a dotter vs a beast master.

Class is fine, even with that clever 75% statement , the real issue on the other hand is that this build didnt really need a legendary class, in terms of balance and as how the game currently stands in pvp, maybe it will balance it out in due time.

[Khettry]

Originally Posted by paulodjohn

v) I dont know any other build in nod that has 75% of their damage reduced by another build. There is none. No even close.

Ever tried Staff DD vs regener w/ samurai bow + suit pieces?

Even if they don't miti, damage that sticks on the reverse winds up being 100x what they can't regen back, even with <400 reg.

Another case for regen being broken, but other builds have a rough time with it, too. We just can't even scratch the surface here.

[Orence]

Can we consider rebalancing the hard counter against disease dotters? It just seems a little arbitrary. The amount of gold I will have to spend on a forsaken pouch with tantelous and other lg gems to counter one class seems odd. As a disease dotter Im kinda powerless against prowlers right now. Maybe a 20% max resist against all dots rather than hard countering a specific and kinda unpopular build? Just a thought.

[Tsutsu]

Originally Posted by Orence

Can we consider rebalancing the hard counter against disease dotters? It just seems a little arbitrary. The amount of gold I will have to spend on a forsaken pouch with tantelous and other lg gems to counter one class seems odd. As a disease dotter Im kinda powerless against prowlers right now. Maybe a 20% max resist against all dots rather than hard countering a specific and kinda unpopular build? Just a thought.

I think its more absurd you can make a disease dotter with low tiers, low epic hp, low skills, and a not expensive pouch and do as well as you are.

[Pale]

Dotters, DC dotters are all way to OP in pvp, period.

[Zaark]

Originally Posted by Pale

Dotters, DC dotters are all way to OP in pvp, period.

IMO if you shouldnt mix staff dotters and dcdotters, now for staff dot there's only 2 in top 30, one at #4 and one at #29 currently.
That makes 2 staff dotters in top 30, just like the number of WW with your exalt build expecting to 1 hit people, tell me how thats more op please.

When I've told ingame how I felt about that 75% disease mitigation you all replyed with something similar to ''adapt noob''.
But you expect dot to be nerf because YOU don't want to adapt. There's a few people who counter dots very well and they even explained how to do so.
Dotters (staff at least) need to adapt in order to have a chance to win vs prowlers, or accept losing all them fights, same goes to you, adapt vs dotters or accept losing to them.

[Lakki]

Originally Posted by Pale

Dotters, DC dotters are all way to OP in pvp, period.

you've been complaining about this for months lol, I saw you put on miti gear, cuddlebugs, polearm of purity against me , and you actually ALMOST won. you forced me to swap to a staff, heal up, and then cast DoT to kill you in bonus. You then smacked me for 25k, proc'd my temporal, and i killed you.

So how is it OP? you've improved. If you're still struggling, perhaps you just need higher skills, better tiers , or need to counter-my-counter, whenever we fight.

Regardless, brooke has a tier 5 BC suit and 3 other tier 5 suits, and he absolutely stomps me and a majority of people who queue.

He also has nearly 70% epic hp, basically maxed skills, high tiers, knows what items to use in which situation, and BTW he's the same thing as you. a Werewolf/Warrior.

Who knew classic melee could be so strong? When Mishba brought up how stupidly strong Discourage Jeweling and Incidental Redirections were against double-casters, and then I showed videos of me trying to fight against them. I improved by raising my MRE,...

It worked, SORT OF. But it wasn't good enough. And Glitch said he won't touch prevents til end of season, so guess what I did, I made a masq staff, and I counter that situation a hell of a lot better, and to the best of my ability and have noticed Successful results.

Any Decent PvP toon will counter a situation to the best of their ability, and adapt. The fact that you ALMOST beat me should be proof of that. keep doing what you're doing and improve on what you're doing, gotta earn a win, not have it given to you.

Same goes for complaints about helram shield, or shields. Shields are strong, Spear of Providence, angel hair whips, and hit chance/anti-block options do exist. USE THEM. If its not working, tier the holy crap out of it, and try it again after you've improved. Can't always counter something you're countering with tier 1 item. Me and Redeye found out the hard way using a tier 1 degen arrow against Brooke or Slashh MULTIPLE times.

If you still can't figure it out, just watch Brooke and BP, and learn from them.

[Tsutsu]

Originally Posted by Lakki

you've been complaining about this for months lol, I saw you put on miti gear, cuddlebugs, polearm of purity against me , and you actually ALMOST won. you forced me to swap to a staff, heal up, and then cast DoT to kill you in bonus. You then smacked me for 25k, proc'd my temporal, and i killed you.

So how is it OP? you've improved. If you're still struggling, perhaps you just need higher skills, better tiers , or need to counter-my-counter, whenever we fight.

Regardless, brooke has a tier 5 BC suit and 3 other tier 5 suits, and he absolutely stomps me and a majority of people who queue.

He also has nearly 70% epic hp, basically maxed skills, high tiers, knows what items to use in which situation, and BTW he's the same thing as you. a Werewolf/Warrior.

Who knew classic melee could be so strong? When Mishba brought up how stupidly strong Discourage Jeweling and Incidental Redirections were against double-casters, and then I showed videos of me trying to fight against them. I improved by raising my MRE,...

It worked, SORT OF. But it wasn't good enough. And Glitch said he won't touch prevents til end of season, so guess what I did, I made a masq staff, and I counter that situation a hell of a lot better, and to the best of my ability and have noticed Successful results.

Any Decent PvP toon will counter a situation to the best of their ability, and adapt. The fact that you ALMOST beat me should be proof of that. keep doing what you're doing and improve on what you're doing, gotta earn a win, not have it given to you.

Same goes for complaints about helram shield, or shields. Shields are strong, Spear of Providence, angel hair whips, and hit chance/anti-block options do exist. USE THEM. If its not working, tier the holy crap out of it, and try it again after you've improved. Can't always counter something you're countering with tier 1 item. Me and Redeye found out the hard way using a tier 1 degen arrow against Brooke or Slashh MULTIPLE times.

If you still can't figure it out, just watch Brooke and BP, and learn from them.

You can't adapt to AC. But k.