Petition to Allow the Breastfeeding of New Players

[Glitchless]

This is the place where you can express your desire to continue making babies out of new players, to give them the unearned fish of eternal weakness rather than to allow them to learn how to fish on their own.

In all seriousness, however, feel free to post "I'm on record for this change being a bad idea," and avoid the stupid/frustrated game bashing that isn't helpful feedback or good for forum account status.

[Davross]

lol

[Blaze]

Ty for killing nova and wasting hundreds of hours of my time.

[Barsoom]

This may, or may not, be a good idea. For the stats to be convincing, you would need to know if those who received gifts were those who typically look for a fast-track. If so, they would have quit anyway. Or worded another way, what percentage of those who quit are grinders at heart that felt the generosity killed the game?

My guess is that this change works on the margins. I suspect that grinders are pretty self-sufficient at heart. It is far more common to hear, "Who is X? He's a cap and I've never heard of him." than "OMG! X quit? He was doing so well."

I may not often agree with Blaze about changes for the game but I recognize the hard work he puts into this game and his efforts to help others. He's not alone. I think the generosity is a motivator for them and I think most people in the game view this as a net positive.

I'm not saying that this will result in fewer players, but it's not clear that the overall results will be good.

[flipynifty]

I agree and I don't agree..

Personally I find it somewhat easy to guage if a new player has the personality to stick around with a bit of talking and i'll throw them a free bone (maybe a BC or something that is out of reach of their skills and level) to urge them to press forward with that goal ahead. Yeah Nod can be a hard grind and there are points where you want to quit, so I feel the odd carrot out there helps. I even gave vamphawk a 99 crusher since he never capped and was mostly a free, he is now capped and last I saw was paid (might have been gifted a tc tho), the crusher isn't on yet but im sure he'll get there.

I do agree that giving a new player a pile of trops, a suit, and other stuff does ruin the experience because they suddenly have an easy button and until that suit and stuff becomes useless they don't even get a feel for how nod will be... the long grind that is purely for the stubborn.

Its bittersweet for me but there are some bigger bleeding hearts that it will affect negatively

edit:

The patch itself does not allow a capped old man, like myself, cant create a lil toon to mess around with and give some gold for some armour or whatevers without being paid. I have done my grind, harder than most new toons, and done my time. Can an email association be included with the patch to allow trading to your own lil alts if they are free and you don't feel like making them paid just to play a day or two on them?
This isn't suggesting making things easier for new ppl, but for the old farts or shiny caps.

[terrorbladestorm]

As I understand glitch post, flippy, u can gift to your alts

Though I recently helped a guy like u did by giving him a BC, he's still logging everyday. Let's see if he sticks

[flipynifty]

Originally Posted by terrorbladestorm

As I understand glitch post, flippy, u can gift to your alts

Though I recently helped a guy like u did by giving him a BC, he's still logging everyday. Let's see if he sticks

You cannot gift your alts, just TC and presumably gold in return to prevent it being seen as discounted.

[Khettry]

May I suggest rather than cutting them off completely, perhaps having a cap on gold/trophies/eq that scales to their level, altogether, rather than per trade?

In the past, I have gifted 50k or 100k to a new player with the caution that it *could* last to lvl 20 or 30 if they are careful with it. I also tend to admonish them that they need to grind hardcore to get and use equipment that's worth having, not just for the trophies to equip it, but in the case of epics/rares, the grind to actually find it or afford it without help can be quite brutal.

I've noticed with the ones that stick around, they generally get the idea by level 25/30 and only ask for handouts the way I have...with the expectation that they won't get them and the determination to keep grinding, regardless.

Given the breaks I've taken in the game, mine was a hard-earned path. If it weren't for players who eventually became as close to rl friends as you can get with people who live on the other side of the world being supportive with info and small boosts every now and then, I probably would have quit long before I ever spent any real money here. Hell, I still ask for guidance and small discounts on items now and then.

Just food for thought.

[Zaphera]

I can't trade to my non payed toons which isn't fair as they are my toons and I am not helping anyone but myself. can you set it up so you can trade to the same email accounts

[RogueTigeR]

Originally Posted by flipynifty

I agree and I don't agree..


The patch itself does not allow a capped old man, like myself, cant create a lil toon to mess around with and give some gold for some armour or whatevers without being paid. I have done my grind, harder than most new toons, and done my time. Can an email association be included with the patch to allow trading to your own lil alts if they are free and you don't feel like making them paid just to play a day or two on them?
This isn't suggesting making things easier for new ppl, but for the old farts or shiny caps.

I also support email associated alts being exempt from the trade bans. I like to mess around on little alts aswell. On a related but different note, I often stack items using the trade to alt and cancel method in conjunction with my item transport companion so i can clean up my storage into pre-existing stacks. This I found is no longer possible because I cannot even initiate item trades to my own alts.

[Neela]

So clan raffles where Ns got free tickets cant be done anymore?

[Mishba]

Part 1 Clarification Request

I need a few point clarified before I add suggestions or complaints to this subject.

1) Does this affect free accounts only ?

2) If a new account Blisses for min of $25.00 and opts for standard or premium account are all trade restrictions lifted?

3) Is the trade restriction lifted at any level for a free account, ie, if a free account grinds from 1 to level 30 do the same trade restrictions apply to that account verses and free account at level 1?

4) Does the trade restrictions apply to that is currently free, but in the past has had standard or premium? Example Billbob Warhog had Premium account for years, got sick, quit play for xxx, returns, account is free status ? 0 gold, no tcs, can I or someone give poor Billy a tc or gold to get his grinding going again??
These questions might have been answered already but I can?t find them.

Part 2 will follow shortly upon getting clarification.

Mishba

[Underkid]

So I assume there is going to be a patch that stops new players from selling TCs for gold until they hit lvl 40 for example? Because with this train of thought, we don't want new players to be spoiled when they sell a tc for 1.8m gold.

I'm not in favour or against this patch, time will tell if it works or not, but I would be very interested in seeing those statistics. And I also think that this is not solely about "being helped" versus "hardcore grind", but also about the baseline mindset of the people who may or may not be helped and would stay around either way.

And also, when does a player stop being a new player? If we have someone in clan for a few months or a year can we help them then? Or instead of a year make it based on RRT spent or something similar?

Cheers

[Blaze]

Right off the bat. I'll say my stance is obvious. I hope to walk out of this without a ban but we'll see how it goes.

Originally Posted by Glitchless

A recent analysis of player progression/retention has shown the following: those who play the game the hard way, earning their own gold, buying their own weapons, and killing their own bosses, are four times as likely get to max level as are those who have had gold and items gifted to them at the start of the game.

Not every new player who starts nod is gonna be cut out for Nod. It doesn't matter if you give someone an item or tell them to go fish. If they dislike the style they're gonna quit. These numbers presumably tip the scales.
Are you tracking everyone? Nova has had over 100 new members join in the last 5 months (launched in may). we kick 20ish a month. 5 have capped. 3 more approaching cap. unknown number are mid levels (cba to count our entire clan list rn) are you trying to imply that a bunch of these people who quit before even reaching level 10 would have capped if we hadn't have helped them? we gave them all items cuz that's what we do. but obviously not all of them are gonna stick. We don't typically kick level 30s though. or level 50s. we kick under level 20 the most. because they play nod for 3 days. easy to get to level 10/15 in that time period. and then quit. it's a trial period. just cuz these guys are buffing the numbers. it's a bogus stat. unless you wanna tell me you only counted players who play for over a week and are actually sticking around.


This is not incredibly surprising since players who get a free suit and weapon then have to grind a ridiculous amount of levels, completely unrewarded, before ever being able to earn an item upgrade for themselves.
Being a low level is a fun time in the game. I had some of the most fun in memory as a low level. but unfortunately. there is a lack of content for low levels. aside from the quests giving rested time there has been no real content added for low levels since I was a newbie. ultimately you can have fun as a low level for a period. eventually you'll run out of stuff to do though. A lot of people just wanna get it over with understandly. the hard part of nod isn't getting I cap. I call that the prequel. the hard part. is getting your legendaries at cap. and making yourself a good toon. and that takes time. years if you don't invest money. speeding up a 3 month process so it takes 2 months. isn't that big of a deal when they still got a year before they'll even be a real cap.

...It is also a finding that coincides with the intended nature of the game itself. Nodiatis is meant to be difficult. Nodiatis is meant to be a slow, hellacious crawl, filled with decisions that players ultimately regret and learn from. Without that initial experience, there is no appreciation for how important your decisions are, or an understanding of how it is that some can do so well at the end-game boss/epic/PvP, while others, with visibly similar equipment, fare so much worse.
here is somewhere we differ. the goal of newbie clans is imo. to teach new players how to avoid making mistakes. what do you view the goal of nod is glitch? just playing the game to play? no competitive nature at all? in my experience few think that. it's typically "I want to be competitive and i'm already starting with a 10 year disadvantage. how can I make this faster so I can at least try to even compete with these old timers?" how long does it take a new player to actually become anyone worth remembering in this community? the youngest arena champion in history was 3 years old. and the game only gets harder to catch up in as time goes on. they already have such a massive gap to bridge. and it's just getting harder now. unless they spend money of course. but let's say you spend a thousand. this isn't a small amount of money. it's a thousand bucks. 4 250 packs. 300 tcs. 540,000,000 gold at 1.8m gold per. let's use bm as an example since they're the build I know best. 2 t3 whips. 240 million. 300 to go. t3 armor set. 88 million. 212m to go. t1 archery set. 75 million. 137 million to go. t2 pets. 100 million (probably more these days). 37 million to go. oh and i didn't take out 72 tcs for full upgrades. oh well. so we've got a mostly t3 bm. not a bad setup. but will they be op? no. they'll be average at best. no tempers no epic hp no pilgs no epic skills cuz so new? nvm they'll be trash. maybe in a couple years they'll be decent. and this is with them spending a thousand right off the bat. This isn't hard enough of a game for them? we need to make low levels harder too?


In order to ensure that new players experience the game the way it is meant to be played--the way the majority of long-term players first experienced it--we are changing the restrictions on player trading for free accounts.


This will not affect alt-accounts, since you can still give your own characters TCs from your main when you wish to start anew, but free accounts will not be able to trade with other players unless they are specifically buying a TC from them.
so unless I buy my alt a face it can't even be given epics now? I don't personally care about this because I don't use low level alts but meh. kinda harsh. I support past posts about making it email based trades allowed.
This means new accounts cannot get free items/gold. As already stated, doing so has been shown to actually ruin their experience.
Now. I'll tell a short story here that supports glitch. I once gave a guy a paved path to nod. I bought him double accel. I gave him virtues. I bought him epic suits to cap. I pled him. let him sit one of my toons for income. and when he capped I bought him his first two legendaries. he was golden. the fast track of nod. know what happened? when he had to do something for himself. he quit. if you spoil someone rotten. so they don't do anything themselves. they truly don't experience how nod is. and they'll crack at the first sign of pressure. Nova gives people new things, and tells them how to avoid mistakes. but we do not repeat my past mistake of making the game lack any challenge at all. we make players work to cap. and we encourage creativity. if you copy everyone else. you're just gonna end up average. you need to be unique to surpass. even if we don't agree with something we'll give advice on how they can use it if they want. it's all about ...what's the word...restraint. helping someone a little and helping someone a lot. are very different. personally. I didn't bliss til I played nod for over a year. and in my experience not many rush into a game spending money. helping them out with leveling for a bit and getting them to mid levels or to cap. they'll have somewhat a feel of the game. and make their own decision on if they wanna bliss or not. i feel this is helping more players cap than making them bliss right off the bat or go without so many things.

In accordance, the following rule has been added to the FAQ:
9. Don't make or suggest making the game easier for new players. Nodiatis is not for the weak. An easy beginning makes for pathetic warriors, not worthy of the princess's communions.

We realize the more tender-hearted among the Nodiatis population will wish to express their horror at such a change, which, according to the above rule, is no longer permitted. We will allow you to break rule #9 in the following thread however: http://forums.nodiatis.com/forums/sh...d.php_p=203582

For clarity: The fake selling of TCs for low prices to new players you don't own or are not real-life friends with is not permitted according to rule #9.

so. how is this gonna be enforced? take me and demontamer for example. say he's a non cap. we live 400 miles away. we've met irl. we're friends. if i give him cheap tcs. am i gonna get bant cuz omg he doesn't live within 50 miles of me? if i won't get bant for doing it with him. how are you gonna enforce it with others? "oh you gave a dude who lives in brazil a fake tc price. can't possibly know him. bant"? i feel like this could use a better wording and be more fleshed out. somewhat to avoid mistakes. like shhhted travels all over the world for his job. he knows people all over the world. would he be bant if he gave someone in china a cheap tc while he's in Canada?

Yes, you can help players kill bosses if you must, sparingly, but don't ferry them around killing things for them unless they are your real life friends.

You can always help new players with info, just not with handouts.

to close. glitch. i'm obviously biased as you just outlawed what is essentially my legacy in nod and something I've done for years on end with pride. but i really hope you see my points. even if you don't remove it entirely. give us some leeway?

i tried to be calm while writing it. sorry if i overstepped some lines but this is something i believe in strongly and feel it's worth fighting for.

[Glitchless]

In general, the new rule about not gifting stuff to new or free players.
Players are exempt from the rule if they:
-Are have Std/Prm Account (and they obtained their status themselves, not via gifts)
-Are close IRL friends w/ you (no circumventing this pretending to be friends with everyone you meet)
-Are Level 85+ (no circumventing by gifting characters to new players)
-Are on a 6+ months old account (no circumventing by gifting characters to new players)

What you do between your own characters and within your own circle of close friends is up to you. How you affect new players who are just joining the game, trying to figure out what it is about, is vitally important to whether they enjoy it or not. Ruining their experience with unearned crap or help is now strictly forbidden.

Originally Posted by Mishba

1) Does this affect free accounts only ?

Yes, but they would have had to obtained status themselves.

Originally Posted by Mishba

2) If a new account Blisses for min of $25.00 and opts for standard or premium account are all trade restrictions lifted?

Same as #1. Yes, all restrictions are lifted, but we still think it's a horrible idea to shower a new person who just paid $25 on TCs simply because they no longer have a face.

Originally Posted by Mishba

3) Is the trade restriction lifted at any level for a free account, ie, if a free account grinds from 1 to level 30 do the same trade restrictions apply to that account verses and free account at level 1?

At level 85 you can consider it completely lifted - though again, we still think it's a bad idea to give someone free stuff. If you must at level 85, try to only give them one powerful piece of equipment. If you give them a full set of LG armor it will be impossible for them to afford an upgrade for so long that they will burn out.

Originally Posted by Mishba

4) Does the trade restrictions apply to that is currently free, but in the past has had standard or premium? Example Billbob Warhog had Premium account for years, got sick, quit play for xxx, returns, account is free status ? 0 gold, no tcs, can I or someone give poor Billy a tc or gold to get his grinding going again??

6+ months old account, and you're fine.

Originally Posted by Blaze

how is this (IRL friend rule) gonna be enforced?

Let's say someone who used to run a gifting clan suddenly has a new IRL friend every day, that would be obvious BS.

Originally Posted by Blaze

here is somewhere we differ. the goal of newbie clans is imo. to teach new players how to avoid making mistakes.

They need to make mistakes, otherwise making the right decision is the expected outcome and thus not rewarding when it occurs.

Originally Posted by Blaze

Not every new player who starts nod is gonna be cut out for Nod.

No kidding, and the ones who are are the types who are capable on their own. We're taking steps to ensure nobody ruins that for them before they have the chance.

Originally Posted by Blaze

what is essentially my legacy in nod

Exactly: your legacy appears to be your current motivation. If you care about what has the greatest chance of allowing players to enjoy the game, you would be on board with at least testing something new: only supplying new players with info and not free stuff, and seeing if it was beneficial.

If you (Blaze) break the rules, you will be more than muted since it is clearly evident that you are doing so on purpose. You will lose all your characters. This is your only warning.

[Barsoom]

Glitch, what am I missing here. "At level 85 you can consider it completely lifted" and "6+ months old account, and you're fine."

If I try to trade from Barsoom (w/ face) to Oroborous (no face, but toon made in 2009, at level 85... and same email), I get the error.

[flipynifty]

If you want to trade stuff to an unpaid alt you cannot but a TC, if they are paid you can give them more stuff.

[Barsoom]

Yeah Flipy, I figured that out, but Glitch's answers to Mishba were misleading.

[Glitchless]

Just want to add and acknowledge that I believe clan Nova always had the best of intentions. And just because Nova was doing something specific, gifting items, that statistically appears to be harmful, it's not to say that the other things that were done did not overcome that one negative. Nova's helpful info, runes, (since they don't interfere significantly with player's normal item progression like gifted items do) and camaraderie has the potential to be very beneficial for new players.

This rule change was not meant as a condemnation of Blaze or clan Nova. It is our belief that they'll have more success without the handouts, and our hope that they'll continue helping new players in the ways that remain.

[Blaze]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

Just want to add and acknowledge that I believe clan Nova always had the best of intentions. And just because Nova was doing something specific, gifting items, that statistically appears to be harmful, it's not to say that the other things that were done did not overcome that one negative. Nova's helpful info, runes, (since they don't interfere significantly with player's normal item progression like gifted items do) and camaraderie has the potential to be very beneficial for new players.

This rule change was not meant as a condemnation of Blaze or clan Nova. It is our belief that they'll have more success without the handouts, and our hope that they'll continue helping new players in the ways that remain.

Nova held a clan discussion last night and we plan to continue under the new rules. However I do have a few questions I'd like the borders outlined on if possible.

1) A free pl is a handout. which is against the rules. is there a minimum price for a pl? is it based on the level of toon being pled if so? for example before the patch I pled Rages for a few hours on Saturday for free. If I were to do that again and charge him 50k/hour. (which is cheap, but not free) Would this be me dodging through a loophole? or is this allowed?

2) going back to a question tipcrys asked. what about trading. for example. tipcrys, me, darklords. we need bulk t1 mats. whether for uptiering or just crafting in general. when I made my t4 whips I traded a tc for 1300 or w/e t1 leathers that the whip required. this isn't a handout as it's paying them for their work of doing that tedious task, but the t1 leather likely are worth far less than a tc. is this still ok?

3) finally. I'm rather lazy. I hate walking town to town. I commonly pay people 50k to walk stuff from town x to town y for me. this is paying them for a service for me. I do it to caps and low levels alike. would this still be allowed?

I want an idea of what I can and can't do. not because i'm looking for loopholes, but because I don't wanna do these things and then you tell me i'm exploiting these and get myself bant. i just want clear decisive lines on it.