PVP balance

[Raidens]

Okay, so after you closing x thread and reading the 'balance' reporting rules. Here goes.

There are currently LG items in game, that clearly have an overpowered effect in this current and previous arena seasons. They're all in the top ten, and were so last season.

Kok staff / 500 dmg per hit regardless if hit or miss, 500 dmg split to two targets if using bif (needs half dmg nerf like other disables received if using bif) and the damage in bonus scales too a point that this staff is stupid s tier class. As for the bif part, this works with all proc weapons, so the proc from ranseur also does... the same max proc to both targets. in bonus a ww can basically proc kill noobs. fix this? ty.

Samurai bow / pretty obvious about this one. every hit. you take damage. only miti stops this, but look at current and previous top tens. basically everyone has it bar casters. the 100% proc and procs from other items being double damage needs a serious rework. Bringing out anuran to counter this was just a bit of a stupid move when you could have lowered the proc to 50% and doubling the chance of other sam pieces to work. s tier

New toad/anuran. when both used, immune to bleeds and bloodlets. so ww/bm nerf. don't really see why it's 100% should be something sensible, like 33% as then at least those builds that make use of piercers or pets are not C tier.

I'd included regen, but there are enough counters to it, but when regen gets combined with samurai, and ww... god damn. you're looking at god tier for this format, and there's jack you can do about it unless you have a half decent team with the right composition.

Take this from a near top ten arena participant who was top ten for a fairly long time, i have a pretty good understanding of how stupidly overpowered these items are in this format.

You release LGs that unbalance the current builds and it's like you put no thought into the pvp side of the game. You hear people whine that stuns are too op, then you completely make them irrelevant. where's unique lgs? fun stuff? new build options? that's what everyone wants, but all you keep bringing out is a counter to a counter. less we not forget you made kok staff to counter prevents, then you nerfed prevents. gg to yourself for that, but kok staff is still s tier and broke.

Just some constructive criticism on the current state of overpowered LGs abused because you deem them ' not op '

this post follows the balance rules, it takes current top ten arena and previous top ten builds into consideration, any feedback welcome.

[Demons]

feedback is we should be allowed to voice our opinions and stuffs. this thread may be closed within 5 mins. lets see. i 100% agree with it tho.

[Glitchless]

LG items aren't builds. Specify full builds if you want anything you say to be considered.

[Demons]

with the proc on these lg's they are what is OP it matters not really what build uses them so much because of how the effects affect the rest. any bm may throw on anuran and 1 toad and ignore samurai bleed, archer bloodlets, or even another bm's bleeds. archers may throw this on and do the same. same can be said for melee. staff dd and staff dot since dc'ers are less likely to keep an aura out. if you take a look at the top rated people currently in arena rn top 10 atleast 4 of them use samurai gear. 3/4 just use the bow though due to the fact it always procs there is no other bow that has such a effect that makes any other worth using as melee or archer even if your a tank. as for kok staff not many may be willing to go staff for this affect. but last 1v1 season thorin was a tank with kok staff who healed himself even. didnt have much of any str at all but was a srs opponent due to the fact kok staff has 100% proc chance and he can out heal / regen most dps done to him and regardless of hit or miss do 500 dmg pre bonus, as a miti tank fighting him with like 40% or more miti i remember our fights getting to the point he was doing over 2k curse witht at staff per swing..

[Raidens]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

LG items aren't builds. Specify full builds if you want anything you say to be considered.

LG items clearly make a build WHAT IT IS. so you're saying kok whips are not a 'build'? yet without koks, bm's would be what? useless basically? yup.

double cast build without... double cast LG's? would be... useless.

LG items clearly make builds, they've given rise to dcdd/dcdot. even given rise to 'samurai tank'. cause without that gear, they would not be... a samurai tank.

[Demons]

personally i feel like this is being put to the side, avoided or even ignored. please devote some attention to this matter and try and see how these things do affect pvp majorly when used by the few players who decide to get them cause they realize how broken they can be with them. i have personally used and tried some of these methods and see how easily they can shut down other build types easily. and i still believe that it should be nerfed even if i have invested into it myself.

[Glitchless]

If there are a bunch of builds that can use a particular LG, then the LG obviously doesn't make the build.

Until you can specify the complete builds which are OP and UP as opposed to the components being used in a variety of builds, you're balance input is not meaningful to me. I have a hunch that you aren't willing to specify the builds because it will become blatantly obvious that you're merely venting frustrations and the builds you want more powerful are already at the top and the builds you want weakened are already counterable.

[Glitchless]

Raidens, give it a rest, post deleted.

Some items are more powerful than others. No kidding. You're not proving a PVP imbalance by repeating this well-known fact. Name the builds that are OP and UP, or don't post.

[Blaze]

my question is glitch, why do we need to name an OP, and a UP? if every other build gains a counter vs 1 specific build. can't it make one build UP without making any others OP? an inbalance is 1 thing not being equal to everything else. not 2 things not being equal to everything else.

I do not particularly feel any build is overly op currently. (Cept maybe pve =p) but I do feel all these counters that every build can use, is making crushers UP. We'll not count the fact that bleed dot build has become impossible completely (not that anyone was using it I guess. thank god).


on a slightly related topic, everyone talks about how toads nerf bms into ground. "half their damage is negated". I am curious what builds are gonna beat bm by utilizing toads.

tank in 1v1 using toads? he ain't regening with timmies so I've got a bit of confidence to kill him.
tank in 3v3 using toads cuz he has a healer? ain't I already using biblade to attack the others?

healer in 3v3 using toads? so he's negating half my damage, true. but he is giving up a large heal bonus. depending on team composition I don't mind.

dotter in 1v1 using toads? not using timmies. i got some confidence there.
dotter in 3v3 using toads? ok that's a bit mean. but can't beat em all.

dder using toads? less confident than vs a dotter but i think i'd manage.
dder in 3v3 using toads? prolly best use of toads so far?


etc.

[Blaze]

and if I misunderstood and we only need a single, UP build. then let's take a crusher.

solar fury crusher. timmies. demonskull arms/bp/helm. ef legs. thraki bow. ranger arrow. lava quiver.

fighting a dotter with anti stun stuff. you cannot land a stun on them to give yourself any break in their dps. those breaks means ticks never stop building. melee has always been a fairly low dps build that relies more on chipping away or one shotting while using their far more tankier setups to outlast. you're taking away a key component to their survival. stunlock is stupid. but soooo many anti stun counters are also stupid.

fighting a dder with anti stun stuff. dders have trouble with regeners typically so you may pull off this win without stuns.

fighting a bm with anti stun gear, plus flesheaters. switch to your vamp gear. cannot land any stuns at all would mean your x% of vamp is directly competing against their full unimpeded dps.


I could go on. but like I asked before. can you, yourself, name a single situation where crushers might be viable over a slasher now, when fighting a similarly skilled toon? slashers at least got a chance to one hit enemy before the end. and even if we have a werewolf crusher that can dice. slasher still has higher dice chance. so at best we're saying crushers have better procs than slashers? far better so that they can make up for the dice skill and still be equal or better to slashers?

we have a chunk of the top pvpers in the entire game all saying the same stuff. even if you don't include me we got what...4 other arena champions saying the same stuff? how many of us are even arguing for our own builds? like. raidens has a dder and a dotter. samurai isn't really countering dots. and for stuns he has his staff I guess. in my case I don't suffer much from samurai, nor do I own a melee toon at all for stuns. maybe some have self interest in their comments. but we are also the people who are at the top and can experience or use these things. like algamisu contributed a large portion of his arena championship to samurai bow. we've already won arena. disregarding everything we say as us just wanting to buff ourselves... is kinda harsh.

[Glitchless]

Thank you for talking about builds.

my question is glitch, why do we need to name an OP, and a UP? if every other build gains a counter vs 1 specific build. can't it make one build UP without making any others OP?

Naming at least 1 that is OP or 1 that is UP is enough. That hasn't been done until your post.

So, you named crushing as the current underpowered build. That's a start.

If you're going into the arena as melee with access only to crushers, you're going to be underpowered due to your idiocy, not the crushers. Having a pair of low delay crushers that you can whip out and force your opponent to counter it or be stunned for more than is healthy, then swap to a different weapon type, is a utility that still has significant benefit.

Not to mention that there are still crushers that see tons of use in arena like the Cudgel of the Unmoving. At the moment, 2 of the 6 people in arena are using it.

So, when you say the "crusher" build, are you really saying "some dumb melee build that relies solely on stun locking?" That _should_ be underpowered.

[Demons]

personally i heavily use samurai. i still say the bow needs a nerf for 100% proc chance. we have 5 out of top 10 using again? thats every melee toon in top 10. and the one regen archer. spead to top 15 and we have 3 more people using it. 2 melee and again another regen archer.
the other 5 in top 10 are mages. 2 or 3 of which use the kok staff for free 500 dmg hits pre bonus and even more post bonus, the other 2 are double cast mages. irrelevant rn. and the other 2 in top 15 are also mages. dotters / healers

i do understand it is hard to try and think about changing things such as the 100% proc on samurai bow. due to the fact many have it, some would be pissed. probs most. but when it is that heavily used by anything non caster...it should show how powerful that bow alone is pvp.

away from the samurai topic is dotters. dotters i will say dont have any specific lg to complain about being too OP for them. pve and pvp they are the fastest dps and not so easy to actually counter 1v1. as blaze mentioned (was overlooked imo cause you didn't acknowledge it) with all the anti stun things it is quite difficult to beat dotters. both staff and double cast. yes we have prevents (tho they were nerfed 2x both in cost to cast and unable to draw as quick as a dotter can, not that we could before, cause they are no longer blue gems = no replay) we have cleanse quiver, which does give hope to some archer tanks out there. but again if your not either very dps oriented and can kill the dotter faster then it kills you (normally highly unlikely) or have enough stacked cnt and resist armor to last long enough to bonus with the extra couple resists and cleanses to get some huge shots out. its pretty hopeless. same goes for melee using resist gear and miti hammer. or cleanse piercer. they both rely on regening into bonus enough to do real dmg to the dotters and kill them. vs staff dot it is easier i will say unless they have RoL and are draining you THAT MUCH. which if you cant counter that. its your own fault. but then we have dc dotters. who can use degen arrow that also has 100 proc chance upon landing hit...and t1 cuts regen by 65%?
so prevents (nerf'd). regen till bonus (horrible vs degen arrow). and miti or cleanse gear (good start). and stuns (nerf'd with so many possible anti stun options). the other way to help vs dotters was tryin to drain there mana / energy...which toads can help them stop atleast 40% of that assuming they only use 1 toad. and draining really only helped vs dc dotters.

[Lakki]

I personally don't think any builds in the game are under-powered, I just think that LG components, which benefit builds are either overpowered or underpowered, and you have a few average ones i suppose.

But the weakest build , If i had to choose? Probably Staff DD'er since I can't find any high ranked Staff DD'ers, but I did see DTM whom is a double-cast DD'er. He is the only one in the top 10 at this moment.

that being said, I didn't take down any numbers , in my opinion if we had a build tier list, it'd probably look something like this, for this format.

3v3 Anon : S tier : Melee/ Staff DoT / Healer

A tier : Pure Archer/DcDD/ DcDoT

B+ tier : Beastmaster

B Tier : Staff DD'er

[Demons]

gotta think outside jsut this season bro...that why we bring up stuff glitch says "isnt a major thing this season" so we can try and solve the problem before it comes one like anuran 100% negating bleeds.....shoulda just made it double the effect of toad....at t1 toad with just 1 toad and the gem thats 30% bleed ignoring...not bad. 2 toads is 60%....thats still really high ammount of ignoring a whole dmg type.....better then 100% tho bro....and is this domaniant in this arena rn? no cause its new and no one but flippy really uses them. but 1v1 negating a lot of your opponents dmg potential...and same with 3v3 premade the 2 seasons that actually matter...thats a big deal. this season is random. based on who can survive longest while doing enough dps to kill them. or live and tank to keep team alive. or heal and keep team alive. and all of which rely on. praying to god tou get good teamates. this season is nothing compared to the other 2 stratagy wise.

[paulodjohn]

If I was to pick any melee type for arena it would 100% be a crusher. I don?t care how many antistuns you draw, the more you have the less other buffs you have. If you have one or two I can chance 30 second weasel shatters. You guys think anti stuns have nerfed them so bad. In fact they have kinda buffed them too when your focused on drawing anti stun always you lose out on other powerful auras. A lot of top regen toons use the miti crusher well. Buffing crusher would make some op toons better.

Staff dot is fairly op for anon and 1v1. But the way premade has gone staff dot is kind of useless. Healing and cures that scale into bonus make it next to impossible to use dot v a good tank/healer. Anon I do well as staff dot, I have 40k hp and a heal setup I can change to that has won me countless fights. I used to also have a drain setup but now I don?t use it anymore as drains IMO are useless. With a full pouch I can barely get a couple of seconds gap in taunts, might cast one or two gems if lucky. But lose all my auras switching pouch and are open to stun lock. Not worth it for one to two gems. Drains need a buff. No build will use them effectively over another gem.

Regen is fairly op in anon and 1v1. In premade it?s not as good as top teams wil have a healer and you want to be drainproof so you choose that over regen. Other formats it?s very op, in anon a good regen will also be able to taunt within 5-10 seconds of the fight. Now once a steady taunt is held there is only certain toons that will be able to kill a decent regen before they die. Mainly degen users or flesh eaters or dots. Most of the time from what I?ve seen against certain regen tanks if i can?t kill their team mates somehow before the bonus builds I will lose. My biggest problem in this anon format is when one team has an op regen tank and the other doesn?t. 3 melee using no degen hitting a regen tank will for the most part never win.

in case people didn?t know the best toons nowadays have multiple weapons/armors/pets on their hotkeys. To change in any given circumstance to try counter what?s in front of them. It might be putting on a miti hammer or a toad to stop 40% of drains, but changing is always the best. This is the most op build, and will always be. Versatility. For the most part this involves regen/heals.

[Blaze]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

Thank you for talking about builds.



Naming at least 1 that is OP or 1 that is UP is enough. That hasn't been done until your post.

So, you named crushing as the current underpowered build. That's a start.

If you're going into the arena as melee with access only to crushers, you're going to be underpowered due to your idiocy, not the crushers. Having a pair of low delay crushers that you can whip out and force your opponent to counter it or be stunned for more than is healthy, then swap to a different weapon type, is a utility that still has significant benefit.

If we always rely on swapping items as needed nothing is ever UP. dotter vs healer? go dd. regener vs bm? go vamp. crusher vs anti stun? go slasher. you could use crushers then swap to another build, yes. but does swapping to another setup, mean that crushing is op? you're using it as a faint even by your own description.


Not to mention that there are still crushers that see tons of use in arena like the Cudgel of the Unmoving. At the moment, 2 of the 6 people in arena are using it.

you have to consider the builds using it though. 1) are those people archers or actual crushers? cuz half the archer tanks in game use that crusher since shields slow bows down. 2) are they a dps or a tank? like you said. 1 weapon doesn't make the build. the setup I described was a dps crusher, not a tank crusher. they may both use a crushing type weapon, but they can be completely different.

So, when you say the "crusher" build, are you really saying "some dumb melee build that relies solely on stun locking?" That _should_ be underpowered.

2h crusher doesn't have super low delay. which is what I used in my example. solar fury has good max damage. and is considered one of the best dps crushers for 2hs. not exactly a weapon that relies solely on stunlocking. as I said on other threads. I do not want crushing returned to how it was 2 years ago. I just don't want them negated entirely.


@paul adaptability is everything in pvp I agree. however, that is when you fight your direct counter. 1 build counters dotter. adapt vs that build. it's checks and balances. however when every single build is your direct counter. that's just "change builds bro"


as for crushers getting a buff because of anti stuns instead of other auras. meh.
one aura gives cures. the other possibly gives bloodlet and bleed immunity. plenty of utilization even when focusing on stuns. let's say you're a healer. fda. angelic. anuran. stoicism. angelic. that'd be pretty ideal setup. yes they give up a second fda. but half their gems are cantrips. the haste aspect while useful is not a core feature. you think you're gonna shatter both in 1 minute before their normal draws and cantrip draws get a new one? maybe in 3v3 if your team works together you could stun a healer. assuming the healer is not using any other anti stun stuff. like the toad that gives stun immunity chances even without the gem.



let's look at arena rn.

1) werewolf tank with a multitude of different melee weapons. mostly demonblood ranseur from what I've heard. 86%. 2nd.

2) dotter/healer. 84%. 3rd.

3) werewolf piercer tank. 67%. 28th.

4) dotter/healer. 75%. 10th.

5) dcdot 74%. 12th.

6) dotter. 67%. 30th.

7) dc dotter/dder. 71%. 19th.

8) crusher TANK. 74%. 13th.

9) archer tank (alternatively pure archer but i consider him tanky enough to be tank =p) 69%. 24th.

10) dotter/healer. 72%. 17th.

11) well. we're on tsu's like 3rd build this season. think he's a werewolf tank rn? 76%. 7th.

12) werewolf tank that has every melee weapon in game. 69%. 23rd.

13) tank/dotter. 76%. 8th.

14) werewolf tank. 66%. 40th.

15) staff dot. 67%. 31st.

16) piercer tank 74%. 14th.

17) bm 65%. 43rd.

18) piercer tank 67%. 35th.

19) the specialness that is flipy with pilg. 57%. 73rd.

20) piercer tank. 75%. 9th.

21) bm 57%. 68th.

22) dcdotter 81%. 5th.

23) piercer tank 62%. 50th.

24) dot/heal 81%. 6th.

25) staff dd. 62%. 51st

26) pure archer 53% w/l. 91st. (more blame on the user than the build =p which she herself would agree with)

27) crusher dps. it took 27 spots. but finally found a crusher dps. 55% 79th


5 werewolves, 4 piercer tanks that will likely eventually be werewolves. (so 5 or 9 of that build. however you spin it)
2 bms
11 tanks of various builds. (including wws)
10 dotters of various builds
1 pure archer
1 staff dd
1 flipy's specialness
1 crusher dps. who is a bunch of t4/5 gear. to manage 27th. if we go by w/l % he's 79th. so a lot of his rating is accumulation from queueing.






on paper a lot of things may appear different from the reality. you gotta consider who the people are. how active which builds are. how much ranking is from activity rather than strength. basically. you gotta experience it to understand. i may be a casual this season but i still have fought in this season.

[Tsutsu]

Originally Posted by paulodjohn

If I was to pick any melee type for arena it would 100% be a crusher. I don?t care how many antistuns you draw, the more you have the less other buffs you have. If you have one or two I can chance 30 second weasel shatters. You guys think anti stuns have nerfed them so bad. In fact they have kinda buffed them too when your focused on drawing anti stun always you lose out on other powerful auras. A lot of top regen toons use the miti crusher well. Buffing crusher would make some op toons better.

Staff dot is fairly op for anon and 1v1. But the way premade has gone staff dot is kind of useless. Healing and cures that scale into bonus make it next to impossible to use dot v a good tank/healer. Anon I do well as staff dot, I have 40k hp and a heal setup I can change to that has won me countless fights. I used to also have a drain setup but now I don?t use it anymore as drains IMO are useless. With a full pouch I can barely get a couple of seconds gap in taunts, might cast one or two gems if lucky. But lose all my auras switching pouch and are open to stun lock. Not worth it for one to two gems. Drains need a buff. No build will use them effectively over another gem.

Regen is fairly op in anon and 1v1. In premade it?s not as good as top teams wil have a healer and you want to be drainproof so you choose that over regen. Other formats it?s very op, in anon a good regen will also be able to taunt within 5-10 seconds of the fight. Now once a steady taunt is held there is only certain toons that will be able to kill a decent regen before they die. Mainly degen users or flesh eaters or dots. Most of the time from what I?ve seen against certain regen tanks if i can?t kill their team mates somehow before the bonus builds I will lose. My biggest problem in this anon format is when one team has an op regen tank and the other doesn?t. 3 melee using no degen hitting a regen tank will for the most part never win.

in case people didn?t know the best toons nowadays have multiple weapons/armors/pets on their hotkeys. To change in any given circumstance to try counter what?s in front of them. It might be putting on a miti hammer or a toad to stop 40% of drains, but changing is always the best. This is the most op build, and will always be. Versatility. For the most part this involves regen/heals.

Literally finished second place with a full on regen team and staff dotter last 3v3. We sure did fight your toon a whole lot for you to make that bold claim.

[Blaze]

paul will just say whatever to get himself buffed anywho. if forums search feature was better i'd pull up threads where he says dot is too op then 8 months later when he's dotter says prevents are too op vs dotters. 2015ish

[Glitchless]

I was expecting there to at least be a build that could be singled out as garbage for PvP in general.

Are there any builds that don't have a chance of placing in the top 3 in the next 3v3 arena season?

[Blaze]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

I was expecting there to at least be a build that could be singled out as garbage for PvP in general.

Are there any builds that don't have a chance of placing in the top 3 in the next 3v3 arena season?

Bleed dotter =p

Overall? No. I know that when you consider balance you look at things from a 3v3 perspective. But is there any way to make it so some lgs have one effect when solo, and unlock another effect while in a group? This could both be a way to make grouped pve ctually viable for once, and to introduce balance into solo arenas without breaking 3v3 arena. If it can't be done I'll drop it.

P. S. Pls don't break pve if it is possible.