Toad of Instransigence

[Huggles]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

It's easy to be snarky. It would be harder to explain the problems you think still exist.

Like I've been saying, just introducing one item that counters something well doesn't help. What about the builds for whom this one item isn't viable? And then for the builds for which that item is viable, it's too strong. More options with smaller bonuses is better than one item with a big bonus.

Just like Timmies tripling regen doesn't make regen viable for builds not using timmy, anti-drain isn't viable for anyone not using the frog or staff.

Items with drawbacks that cripple some people but can be completely avoided by others don't seem like good design to me either. For example, Krisses can be used and still allow regen...on an archer or DCDD, and they still provide their insane 20% hit/50% incap avoidance. There is no detrimental effect suffered for getting that inflated bonus.

You wouldn't introduce a melee weapon that does 2x damage and nerfs your manergy regen because most melees wouldn't be affected by it, but you seem to be fine doing it where HP regen is concerned. I don't know why.

Here are some examples of a bad weapon ideas along the same lines:

Hammer of Critting
2H Crush
This weapon increases your chance to crit with all attacks by 15% and increases your crit damage by 10% but has a chance when striking to apply an aura to yourself which reduces your HP regen by 60%.


Bow of Mental Focus
Doubles the rate at which you regain mana but halves your energy regen.

[Glitchless]

Mmmk. We've got regeners claiming regen is not OP and a nonplayer designing theoretical bad weapons. Not getting anywhere.

If you want to point out a _build_ or multi-build (ie the sets that can be swapped to) that you think is truly OP (i.e. what was being loosely defined as "the problem") and in need of a counter, feel free to do so. A faceless person with a drain in their pouch isn't it.

[Freakymagic]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

Mmmk. We've got regeners claiming regen is not OP and a nonplayer designing theoretical bad weapons. Not getting anywhere.

If you want to point out a _build_ or multi-build (ie the sets that can be swapped to) that you think is truly OP (i.e. what was being loosely defined as "the problem") and in need of a counter, feel free to do so. A faceless person with a drain in their pouch isn't it.

The problem is the same problem that has been stated over and over. In non premade formats DRAINS ARE TOO STRONG. This new pet solves nothing for this issue. Instead of tanks being drained and unable to taunt, they will die so quick that its the same result. Casters can use their old pets and get drained and watch the match while they do 10% of their dmg since they cant cast. OR they can use the new pet and be unable to maintain their casting OR die due to no "tankyness" (no vamp/no regen). The ONLY build that can gain a true benefit from this pet.. IS THE BUILD ABUSING DRAINS.

Drains are a cheap, reliable, toxic gem line in these non premade formats. Rather then giving these worthless lgs that dont solve the issue with drainswhy not LOOK AT DRAINS THEMSELVES.

You earlier said nerfing drains would buff regeners.... HOW? Doters are the users abusing drains.. they can deal with regeners easily without drains. Hell even if they COULDNT deal with regeners without drains... THEY ARE SO STRONG they deserve to be weak to ATLEAST one build Instead of being very strong/even against every build.

[Tsutsu]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

Mmmk. We've got regeners claiming regen is not OP and a nonplayer designing theoretical bad weapons. Not getting anywhere.

If you want to point out a _build_ or multi-build (ie the sets that can be swapped to) that you think is truly OP (i.e. what was being loosely defined as "the problem") and in need of a counter, feel free to do so. A faceless person with a drain in their pouch isn't it.

The same thing we've been saying the entire time. staff dot with drains is way too strong for what it is. Staff heals with drains is way too strong for what it is. This toad accomplishes exactly nothing new in this game. It has no use in formats outside of 3v3 premade, and in 3v3 premade there is a better option to use in place of the toad. I don't regen. I beat regeners all the time. There is: Degen arrow, chippie, reaper, gravebond, doublecast whip, degen crusher, fleshies, Rule of Law already in the game to counter regeners. Removing the listless aura portion of this would at least make it have SOME use. You're already giving up the regen from a timmy(which you need to have any sort of meaningful regen mind you not to mention the flat 10% mitigation) to use the drain proof portion of this... You'd need to use 2 of the toads to have any sort of real mitigation to drains so you have no timmies on to increase your regen. Leaving you with very little hp regen to begin with.

BTW Neither freaky nor I run regen so I don't have any idea what you're talking about with the "regeners claiming regen isn't op"

[Soxson]

Originally Posted by Freakymagic

The problem is the same problem that has been stated over and over. In non premade formats DRAINS ARE TOO STRONG. This new pet solves nothing for this issue. Instead of tanks being drained and unable to taunt, they will die so quick that its the same result. Casters can use their old pets and get drained and watch the match while they do 10% of their dmg since they cant cast. OR they can use the new pet and be unable to maintain their casting OR die due to no "tankyness" (no vamp/no regen). The ONLY build that can gain a true benefit from this pet.. IS THE BUILD ABUSING DRAINS.

Drains are a cheap, reliable, toxic gem line in these non premade formats. Rather then giving these worthless lgs that dont solve the issue with drainswhy not LOOK AT DRAINS THEMSELVES.

You earlier said nerfing drains would buff regeners.... HOW? Doters are the users abusing drains.. they can deal with regeners easily without drains. Hell even if they COULDNT deal with regeners without drains... THEY ARE SO STRONG they deserve to be weak to ATLEAST one build Instead of being very strong/even against every build.

You have a good point. We should be looking at the issue itself, not making more crappy gear that are only good for/against a very specific build type but impractical anywhere else. People like gear that are flexible among different builds and uses and don't want to include specialized purpose stuff like that. Adding anti this and that LGs doesn't really work out like people want it to.

[Glitchless]

Originally Posted by Soxson

You have a good point. We should be looking at the issue itself, not making more crappy gear that are only good for/against a very specific build type but impractical anywhere else. People like gear that are flexible among different builds and uses and don't want to include specialized purpose stuff like that. Adding anti this and that LGs doesn't really work out like people want it to.

More 'crappy gear' (that some of the people who say it sucks are already using) has come to be our preferred method of re-balancing, not out of complete ignorance, but from two decades of balancing trial and error. Pie in the sky simRPG contributors can disagree all they want. This may look like a lot of complaining, but it is nothing compared to when you actually nerf something that people have invested in.

The counterargument to that in this specific case is that nobody has invested much into drain gems--and that's fair. Tsutsu was probably already in the process of typing "drains are 100k" as a response. So here we may be able to do something out of the ordinary and modify the actual drains. Announcement pending.

After some more analysis, crunching numbers with a quantum computer, there may be some validity to the claim that regen itself is not exactly OP in PvP, even in this format. Not convinced, however, that "teh casters using drains!" is exactly OP either. In general, tanks seem to be both the strongest in this format and the the first to freak out if someone manages to prevent them from taunting - which is a perfectly legit strategy.

But at any rate, we may have some changes in store that will make more people happier, without upsetting the balance (or lackthereof) of power substantially. Announcement pending.

[Tsutsu]

Step in the right direction, thank you glitch. I didn't even realize this toad worked on thefts which made the people who were using drains even harder to beat.

[paulodjohn]

I dont buy it. I tried draining a tank yesterday (shershah) to kill his dot support. I changed to a drain pouch (28 of the highest rank drains). i was able avoid being taunted for 10-15 seconds at a time. while i changed to this pouch i was completely open to stun/daze/mez. and when changing back to dot i was again getting stun/daze/mez. So that 10-15 sec where i could target support i couldnt make full use of it due to being incapacitated. I lost that match of course.

[Huggles]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

Mmmk. We've got regeners claiming regen is not OP and a nonplayer designing theoretical bad weapons. Not getting anywhere.

If you want to point out a _build_ or multi-build (ie the sets that can be swapped to) that you think is truly OP (i.e. what was being loosely defined as "the problem") and in need of a counter, feel free to do so. A faceless person with a drain in their pouch isn't it.

I don't see how me being inactive is an issue. I pointed out the likely issues with Samurai Bow not long after its release even without having played the game, and those predictions came true. I won arena my first full season after returning to the game. But, who knows, maybe I don't know how the game works.

Basic issue that we've tried to explain:

Pretty much all builds that need manergy are shut down by drains. This means:
Tanks who need manergy to taunt
Healers who need manergy to heal
Casters who need manergy to cast
BMs who need manergy for auras
Melees who need manergy for auras
Archers who need manergy for auras

Of course, there's a 100% counter to this in the form of Shielding. That means healers (and people with healers on their team) can avoid being shut down by drains. Some staff casters can toss a few heals in their pouch and run Shielding to be immune as well. Everyone else has no real counter.

Then, you introduced Toad 2. As others have pointed out, using an item comes at a cost.

Who needed a drain counter? Pretty much everyone except Shielding healers.
Tanks need regen or a healer in order to survive. If they have a healer, toad is pointless. If they don't have a healer, they need regen, in which case they can't use the toad. In addition to removing the 75% buff that Timmy gives, you're also taking a 90-100% penalty from the listless aura, resulting in a total regen change of -94.3% just from switching a single timmy. It's simply not viable unless you find a way to make your Toad not hit (and thus not proc its aura), in which case your regen penalty is only 43%.

Staff DoT and DD would both probably just be better off running shielding with a few heals thrown in, but they can still run the toad. The cost here isn't too high.

.........Just realised you already changed drains. Not going to bother finishing.

[Glitchless]

Originally Posted by Huggles

I don't see how me being inactive is an issue. I pointed out the likely issues with Samurai Bow not long after its release even without having played the game, and those predictions came true. I won arena my first full season after returning to the game. But, who knows, maybe I don't know how the game works.

Basic issue that we've tried to explain:

Pretty much all builds that need manergy are shut down by drains. This means:
Tanks who need manergy to taunt
Healers who need manergy to heal
Casters who need manergy to cast
BMs who need manergy for auras
Melees who need manergy for auras
Archers who need manergy for auras

Of course, there's a 100% counter to this in the form of Shielding. That means healers (and people with healers on their team) can avoid being shut down by drains. Some staff casters can toss a few heals in their pouch and run Shielding to be immune as well. Everyone else has no real counter.

Then, you introduced Toad 2. As others have pointed out, using an item comes at a cost.

Who needed a drain counter? Pretty much everyone except Shielding healers.
Tanks need regen or a healer in order to survive. If they have a healer, toad is pointless. If they don't have a healer, they need regen, in which case they can't use the toad. In addition to removing the 75% buff that Timmy gives, you're also taking a 90-100% penalty from the listless aura, resulting in a total regen change of -94.3% just from switching a single timmy. It's simply not viable unless you find a way to make your Toad not hit (and thus not proc its aura), in which case your regen penalty is only 43%.

Staff DoT and DD would both probably just be better off running shielding with a few heals thrown in, but they can still run the toad. The cost here isn't too high.

.........Just realised you already changed drains. Not going to bother finishing.

The reason why I've stated that you need to specify the build that is OP and not the "issues/problem" is because the list of "issues/problems" can be, and will be, incomplete and not represent the full spectrum of pros/cons. Here's a meaningless list for example presented by someone asking for a werewolf buff, claiming their DPS is too low:
Werewolves who need more Dex to for piercers
Werewolves who need more Str for slashers
Werewolves who need more Derp for Derpers

If you're forced to list a build, then we can look and see if the build is actually outperforming other builds, and you can't cherry pick "issues" out of malice or by accident to make an argument that looks complete when it is not.

So once again, and forever to be ignored if you can't comply:
State the build that you think is OP. Not your past accomplishments, not your favorite color, not how hard you've been trying to explain something, not obvious truths that were never up for debate like "using an item comes at a cost."

The only reason drains were changed was because they were a pain in the butt mechanic, similar to incapacitates--not for balance reasons. The builds that were making use of them were not dominating this arena season.

[paulodjohn]

You overdid it. Now having drains is completely pointless. They are 100% useless now. wheres the happy medium? back to having 0 ways to get around a good regen/tank. Also now there is no way to stop a healer for a few seconds. It was really hard given they have shielding staff. Now its probably impossible.

[Glitchless]

Originally Posted by paulodjohn

You overdid it. Now having drains is completely pointless. They are 100% useless now. wheres the happy medium? back to having 0 ways to get around a good regen/tank. Also now there is no way to stop a healer for a few seconds. It was really hard given they have shielding staff. Now its probably impossible.

This is why every post made by a player needs to be viewed as though it's coming from a ridiculously biased source, and that the bits of info provided have been both cherry picked to not tell the full story and/or may be completely inaccurate. It's short so let's break it down:

>>You overdid it. Now having drains is completely pointless. They are 100% useless now.

OK, 100% useless. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he'll explain how.

>>back to having 0 ways to get around a good regen/tank.

Hmmm... Off the top of my head I can think of quite a few regen counters. BUT at least he's mentioning a build that he thinks is OP, though not as clearly as could have been done. We could at least take a look and see if these regen tanks he's speaking of are dominating in any particular manner in spite the myriad regen counters, the majority of which have nothing to do with drains.

>>Also now there is no way to stop a healer for a few seconds. It was really hard given they have shielding staff. Now its probably impossible.

Now we have stepped into misinformation land. Note that the tiniest bit of exaggeration can be the difference between a valid balance complaint and one that is completely baseless. And this statement is a clear exaggeration. Drains were reduced in duration from 20 seconds to 5 seconds, which was not a decrease in power but an increase of their power per second albeit for a shorter amount of time. And that time is categorically still _more_ a few seconds.

Now, in spite of all those problems with the post, it was still vastly more informative than the grandstanding essay type post which enumerates a bunch of info, the totality of which--even if all true--would not prove an imbalance, and never specifies the build that they believe is overpowered.

[Darklords]

So am i to understand you only now looking at both sides? maybe its time to revisit the changes u made to prevent gems? and other things which were removed. for instance growl. give it back but in a pve effect... unlike most builds bm's cant make use of regen...

[paulodjohn]

Staff users are the only ones who could use the drains optimally.

Options for staff users to overcome regen/tank (Most op build in anon 3v3)

1/ rule of law (this is an ok option but people can shatter this gem every 30 seconds, plus there is a decent regen aura that doesnt need any m/e. Having to keep target drained is harder than you think. They use thefts and can steal the 50 m/e it costs to upkeep the x4 regen aura)

2/ Drains, to drain and prevent the tank from taunting. since they only last 5 seconds now this will be impossible to do without gimping your pouch. You would need 1/3 or 1/4 of your pouch to be drains, even then it may not be enough with bad rng and resists. Taunts dont cost much to cast and thefts will allow some taunting to get through even while getting drained.

3/ Chippy. I havnt tried using one to fight a regener. I am not sure what % of the time it procs, nearly all casters have no str and dex so the likelyhood of chippys landing hits then the listless proc activating is probably not that great.

For some regeners give them 10-15 seconds without having listless and regening fully and they will go from 50%-100%.


For me I think i wont use drains anymore. They are too underpowered and will required way too many in pouch to actually work as intended. I agree they were a bit op the way they used to be. But i think nerfing them to the point where nobody will use is a bad idea.

[Glitchless]

Originally Posted by Darklords

So am i to understand you only now looking at both sides? maybe its time to revisit the changes u made to prevent gems? and other things which were removed. for instance growl. give it back but in a pve effect... unlike most builds bm's cant make use of regen...

Please note this new rule:
http://forums.nodiatis.com/forums/sh...398#post202398

Was it your intention to suggest that the KoK or other BM build is underpowered in PvE?

[Darklords]

all Pure BMs suffer from a lack of growl in pve, i find that i have trouble surviving in heroic redwood without it. once we get passed the 100 zones it becomes increasing difficult for pure bms who rely on pets to deal damage to also mitigate said damage where as other just change pets to timmies and regen. I used to be able to farm fonr. i no longer can with it removed.

[Glitchless]

Originally Posted by Darklords

all Pure BMs suffer from a lack of growl in pve, i find that i have trouble surviving in heroic redwood without it. once we get passed the 100 zones it becomes increasing difficult for pure bms who rely on pets to deal damage to also mitigate said damage where as other just change pets to timmies and regen. I used to be able to farm fonr. i no longer can with it removed.

When providing evidence that a build is underpowered, you need to compare it to the other weakest builds, not previous time points in the game where that build had a tool it no longer has.

[Darklords]

the point is there aint 1 to compare it too...

Archer throw on timmies regen
melee throw on timmies regen
caster throw on timmies regen

The only build which relys on pets for dps is bms which is the only build which cannot use regen in pve...

[Glitchless]

Originally Posted by Darklords

the point is there aint 1 to compare it too...

Archer throw on timmies regen
melee throw on timmies regen
caster throw on timmies regen

The only build which relys on pets for dps is bms which is the only build which cannot use regen in pve...

You have shown BMs are not a great choice for using regen, and we acknowledge that regen as a whole is currently overpowered in the highest levels of PvE. That issue is on our radar for future balance changes.

[Freakymagic]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

More 'crappy gear' (that some of the people who say it sucks are already using).

Before knowing the new toad effects thefts as well as drains (assuming that drains only means drain gems not thefts as well since they are different, would also suggest changing impervious auras description since both it and the toad mention drains, one works on drains and thefts, one works only on thefts). Issue i had with the pet is its only viable to the build that used drains, doter. Thankfully the drain changes address the issue so *shrug*. Without the theft aspect on the toad it would be a different story.

Originally Posted by paulodjohn

Staff users are the only ones who could use the drains optimally.

For some regeners give them 10-15 seconds without having listless and regening fully and they will go from 50%-100%.

For me I think i wont use drains anymore. They are too underpowered and will required way too many in pouch to actually work as intended. I agree they were a bit op the way they used to be. But i think nerfing them to the point where nobody will use is a bad idea.

Dots (both staff and dbl cast) still have options to deal with regeners. Yes its now not brain dead to use drain gems and keep rol out but that is still an available option as well as having chippy and gravebound from staff. Dbl having degen arrow as well as chippy.

Doters are still extremely strong. Ability to have high dmg while being tanky while easily being able to run heals for team if needed. They need to be weaker and this helps that but they are still one of the best builds pve and pvp.

Funny how when prevents were blue and op, you complained they were too cheap for countering high cost builds as well as one of the highest contenders to having them nerfed. Drains were the same thing but in reverse and complemented your build and now you dont want them to be useless.

I agree things shouldn't be nerfed and be 100% useless. Imo drains are not useless and still have a place in arena its simply changed and not the op thing that it was before.