Drains

[Freakymagic]

So how about releasing more counters to drains?

Samurai stuff has not been op and annoying as hell for as long as drains but already had multiple lg release's to try and counter them. On top of that they are both counters any build can use (pet and gem). Drains meanwhile are even more annoying, and completely shut down many builds, yet they have 1 counter that's only available to 1 build, healer.

[Tsutsu]

I too would like to see more readily available counters to drains.

[Blaze]

Originally Posted by Ideaman

I too would like to see more readily available counters to drains.

when was the last time you and freaky actually disagreed on a forums suggestion =o this post is as useless as my post. if freaky made a thread you actually argued against i'd be impressed. and vice versa.

that being said. i suppose i support. i guess prevents counter drains some but yh tis a joke in comparison. and once one gets through. rip.

[Tsutsu]

shocking that two people agree where the game should go

[Glitchless]

A little more discussion and analysis would be useful. For instance:
Which builds can make good use of drains? Which can't at all?
Which builds would be made useless without drains?
Which builds might be OP if not for drains being used against them?

[Tsutsu]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

A little more discussion and analysis would be useful. For instance:
Which builds can make good use of drains? Which can't at all? Dotters/healers. Anything but dotters/healers.
Which builds would be made useless without drains? None.
Which builds might be OP if not for drains being used against them? Taunters would be able to taunt, and casters would be able to cast.

Just seems silly a dotter can cast 1 gem and make you not be able to cast/taunt or anything because they drain that much mana or energy.

[Huggles]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

A little more discussion and analysis would be useful. For instance:
Which builds can make good use of drains?
Any staff build with enough Cnc and MRe/PRe
Which can't at all?
Most melee and BMs
Which builds would be made useless without drains?
None
Which builds might be OP if not for drains being used against them?
DC casters which rely on MRe to do anything

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From last 1v1 season when freaky asked for drain counters:

Originally Posted by Huggles

If you look at highest win percentage, 1, 3, 4, and 7 are DoT casters, and 8 of the top 20 rating are DoT casters.


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I'm not a fan of massive changes, let alone massive changes in the middle of a season, which is why, again, I think buffing Impervious Aura slightly is the way to go. A 5-10% reduction in drains would make draining still viable in both 1v1 and 3v3 while providing some respite, especially for those with more MRe and PRe investment.

If that small change isn't enough you can always do more later.

[Enduir]

Here are some points I've made before on the subject, hopefully spark some reasonable discussion.

There was a change to drains ~4 years ago that was really a superbuff.

Tick speed increased and proc timing changed to occur immediately after your opponent's manergy regen tick.

I think at the time this was targetted as a combined sacri counter along with Rule of Law, back when regen was king and counters were few (yes, I know the issue was more that people didn't want to use the available counters).

So, drains got pretty solid and were used almost exclusively by casters due to the casting needs. 1v1 seasons a good proportion of caster 1v1 fights were drain vs drain then switch to DoT. Not many people used prevents back then.

Since casters were draining everyone into the ground, defting prevents became a thing. Couple of strong toons saw potential and used them, bit of moaning from us casters, not the end of the world. Then every man and his dog saw how effective defting prevents had become. Important to note that prevents were blue gems back then, so every pull they had replay chance, very low manergy needs and no GCD. So in the time it takes a deft caster to draw, GCD and cast an opponent might replay 3-4 prevents that all had an immediate chance to stop your next gem(s).

Next season, everyone had a full prevent pouch and casters couldn't land a thing - except on themselves, thanks to reflect procs. It's not much of an exaggeration to say if your first drain failed against a half-strong toon, the fight was almost a guaranteed loss. Not quite, but almost.

So drains were (in my opinion) made too strong initially. Defting prevents (not necessarily prevents themselves) was too effective. Replay was a massive part of this, you didn't see many red prevents in arena.

Changing prevents from blue to grey from my perspective was too much of a nerf. I still think they could have a place in PvP without a 200k pouch shutting down every dps caster build. I would argue for them to be returned to being blue lines but with a change to their mechanics. Reduced replay skill for those lines? GCD or partial GCD on them? GCD for the second in line if the first procs? Increased manergy requirements? Reduced proc %? All worth considering IMO.

Failing that, when it comes to drains themselves, I would support other items/procs/skills to counter or mitigate their affect. Cleanse could be changed to reduce ticks by X%. Some of the underused shields/weapons could have drain mitigation procs added, really there are only a few of each used in PvP. Could be a mix of 'drainproof for X seconds' and 'reduces drains by X%'.

I'd rather it not be another LG gem personally, pouch is already bursting at the seams.


I should mention I'm listing these kinda as an either/or, don't want to nerf drains into the ground either. I think both drains and prevents should be options, just not the only options.

[Huggles]

Agreed with Endy. Also I would say it's better to have a handful of options which partially counter drains and can be stacked, rather than only having one item that completely shuts down drains.

[paulodjohn]

In the current format 3v3 anon every season is won by a regen tank. Drains are a counter to them, but even with the big bonus and theft runes they still might not always work. Also take into consideration the most recent change to cnt. Its now harder to land the drains v a good level of cnt (which is not at all hard to get)

[Huggles]

Originally Posted by paulodjohn

In the current format 3v3 anon every season is won by a regen tank. Drains are a counter to them, but even with the big bonus and theft runes they still might not always work. Also take into consideration the most recent change to cnt. Its now harder to land the drains v a good level of cnt (which is not at all hard to get)

You can also hit them with a -100% degen aura via degen arrow , hammer, or whip

[Lakki]

Originally Posted by Ideaman

Just seems silly a dotter can cast 1 gem and make you not be able to cast/taunt or anything because they drain that much mana or energy.

Perhaps he could make a weapon that makes you semi-drain proof, or drainproof, but that seems rather OP doesn't it? he would have to compensate in some way, listless aura, a really slow delay, or maybe even make you take more damage, in exchange for being drainproof.

I don't know. If he releases another LG gem, that makes you drain-proof at all times until it is shattered, I suppose he could. Seems like it would be pretty OP vs DoTters for sure lol.

He made Anti-incapacitate gems, and Anti bloodlet/bleed gem. You could argue prevents are counters to drains. Cuddlebugs/prevents, and high CNT are a counter to drains, but not in a sense that one Staff of Shielding + HoT gem is.

That being said, would we see a counter, to drain counters? Could we simply shatter this "drainproof gem" and continue casting drains away? A DoTter's strength is drains, as much as a Crusher's is a stun. Or an archers blind.

Would also be wondering if we would see a counter to shielding staff too. Keep in mind, anti-drains are just as annoying for DoTters, as drains are for you

Doesn't seem like an easy one to balance. I suppose we'll be seeing drain-proof weapons, or a LG impervious gem. who knows

[Blaze]

Originally Posted by paulodjohn

In the current format 3v3 anon every season is won by a regen tank.

we've had 3 seasons of this previously. we just gonna ignore a bm won one of those 3?~

[Tsutsu]

Originally Posted by paulodjohn

In the current format 3v3 anon every season is won by a regen tank. Drains are a counter to them, but even with the big bonus and theft runes they still might not always work. Also take into consideration the most recent change to cnt. Its now harder to land the drains v a good level of cnt (which is not at all hard to get)

I've won this format as a BM. I have over 1,000 CNT and have bc arms/helm/anti magic/WW resist/100 in resist skills. Let me tell you i still get drained like crazy.

[Freakymagic]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

A little more discussion and analysis would be useful. For instance:
Which builds can make good use of drains? Which can't at all? Staff caster using dots/heals. Any non caster 100% cant, realisticly any non doter/healer cant,
Which builds would be made useless without drains? Nothing, doters and healers are strong as hell.
Which builds might be OP if not for drains being used against them? Maybe tanks. But those same toons that are tanks could be jsut as op as other builds, its just this format ( 3v3 semi anon solo que plays VERY favorably for tanks with some gear swaps. Outside of this format 1v1/3v3 nothing.

My biggest issue with drains is its very anti "fun" Cool, you used 1 cheap gem from a store and i now get to watch you kill me because i cant x ( taunt for team as a tank, cast as a dd/bm, stay alive if using regen since those with drains use ROL as well, get pet haste/pet dmg bonus from rabid/pet haste, increase dmg from aura's for melee/archer.

Healers/doter (the 2 builds/1 build since easy to use both, that can really use drains) are already strong as hell. Can be tanky with a staff and regen, can not use regen and just have 2 pouch's, 1 dot 1 heal. Do insane dmg as dbl doter and still be able to swap to heals on 2nd suit. The fact this/these builds can use store bought gem to not only help them win, but make the other players in arena they face to dislike the experience since they CANT do most of what their build is built around. I can autoshoot/auto attack.... fun.... while im a tank that watchs my team die, while im a dps caster that cant dps. while im a melee/archer/bm who has no auras to supplement my build making me far weaker.

In 3v3 premade drains are useless since any real team has a healer and every healer has the staff of shielding. One of the reasons i dislike having 100% HARD counter to something. Its either broken as hell, or useless as hell (depending if a HARD counter has been released yet for x build).

Im not asking for another form of staff of shielding, nore the new anuran supplication aura that 100% shuts down multiple builds. I would simply like SOMETHING that multiple builds can use to have a counter to the BS drains that 1 of the strongest builds only has access to.

If thats a LG impervious aura that the drainer ATLEAST has to shatter to use their drains. Ok.
A pet that has 25% or 33% or w/e % to prevent any all drain effects. Cool
Reducing the speed that drains tick forcing those using drains to ACTUALLY invest in using a drain pouch to shut down builds. Awesome
Maintaining the tick rate but shortening the duration so they have to consistently use drains to shut down opponents. Workable.

Originally Posted by paulodjohn

In the current format 3v3 anon every season is won by a regen tank. Drains are a counter to them, but even with the big bonus and theft runes they still might not always work. Also take into consideration the most recent change to cnt. Its now harder to land the drains v a good level of cnt (which is not at all hard to get)

As tsu said, go run 1k cnt with bc gear and bugs. Then get drained consistently. Super fun.

Originally Posted by Blaze

when was the last time you and freaky actually disagreed on a forums suggestion =o.

We disagree on lots of things, Just very very rarely on major things, Mostly minor stuff that is semantics to whatever the subject is.

[Huggles]

I might as well say it.

Counters to stuns:
Stoic (100%)
Supreme Stoic (100%)
Hogs (originally 25%, now 33% each)
Kris (50% each)
Doubler (originally 5% i think, 25% now?)
Spear (Variable)
Cleanse (Limited)
Toad (Variable)
That one CA that I can't remember (Limited)
Various LG Skills

Counters to drains:
Drainproof staff (100%)
Bear Hide (20%)

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You nerfed stuns because people were too pigheaded to use most of the many available stun counters. Are you going to nerf drains because people don't use the only real drain counter? Or are you going to add more counters?

Aliangel Legs/Sleeves could give something like 6%/4% drain reduction in addition to their current effects.

As I've been saying for a while, Impervious could also give a small drain reduction.

Venomback Lizards are probably the least used PvP pet. An ability which converts a portion of a drain applied to you to be a poison dot effect instead could be interesting.

Bloodcrystal BP doesn't see much use either. A small drain reduction/resistance effect could be tacked on.

Angel Hair Whip and Vampiric Dragon Whip exist too. You might have forgotten because nobody uses them. What if they were actually situationally viable thanks to some sort of drain resistance?

[flipynifty]

drains are ridic I agree

[Wulfrym]

v
drains too strong

[Freakymagic]

So any update on possibly more counters/nerfs/changes/etc to drains?

[Glitchless]

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