Rogue CA Intended Effect?

Aceman · 10-26-2014, 01:13 AM

OK so first off I just want to declare that this is only after Testing with TWO Rogues, and not Three. However ( If according to my calculations they are indeed linear increases) what would happen if there was a 3rd Rogue is most likely correct.

Now to my actual report.

I had noticed some strange properties that went with the Rogue Class Ability. According to the class text -

"Deals a high amount of damage plus an added poison effect if the target is already poisoned"

I noticed that when I used the CA on a target that had a rank 7 Antigenesis(38 over40), the amount of poison damage added was increased from 3 per tick, to 16 per tick but doing overall less ticks in total. I noticed then that when using the CA with a R10 Blood Plague (99 over 25) the ticks went from 8, to 21 per tick and still doing on average 1.5 fewer ticks (the same decrease as the Antigenesis)

This caused me to question whether or not the CA increased damage, but did it in less time. I had another Rogue, Slippar, group with me and took our pets off to test the poison damage because he noticed that his CA only did a small burst of high poison ticks, and then faded to nothing.

We concluded from that test that because he was using an Envenomation pot, the ca only lasts as long as the original poison on the target, but deals a larger amount of increased ticks. from 4 to 41.

Then we tested what would happen if we both used our CA on the target that had a R10 Blood Plague, R7 Antigenesis , and R8 Toxicity poison on it. That is (99+58)* + [38]^ queued poison Damage.
* = over 25 seconds ^ = over 40 seconds

which equals 195 queued damage. this ticked once for 16 damage, then 31 damage after my CA. then when Slippar used his CA, the damage increased to 105 per tick. this continued to tick 3 more times, then ticked once more on a 1/2 tick for 100 before fading. this totals out to 462 damage. so the increase was = 267 damage (for a 136% increase in damage.)

Now i noted that the increase was from 1.33 for 1 ca, and then 2.66 for a 2nd ca, that if a 3rd ca was used, it would most likely multiply instead of add. (this may or may not be true, because we couldn't get a 3rd rogue to test with us)
now if that is true, then the 3rd ca would increase it by 5.32
therefor the equation would be something like this
{5.32[2.66(195*1.33)]} = 3670 damage (1882% increase in damage)

now assuming that I was wrong to assume that it multiplies instead of adds, then the equation would be this instead
{3.99[2.66(195*1.33)]} = 2752 Damage (1411% increase in damage)

I think that this is potentially game breaking, given that these were r7-10 gems. if this was abused at high level game play, the results could be... astounding if not to say the least.

I do not know if this effect was intended to be used as a powerful combo, or if it is an exploitable, very powerful and unintentional powerhouse move. Either way, I do believe that this should be reworked in some way to remove some unintended power late game.

::Intended Effect should be ;
Add's it's own specific instance of poison damage based on level or on how many other instances of poisons are stacked on the target. If the target has 5 stacks of poison queued on him, it should add another instance of poison, that deals a set amount based on lvl* instances already on. instead of adding additional damage to the already existing damage queued.

Aceman · 10-27-2014, 12:27 AM

So I guess there is a cap of damage that each Rogue can add, so i suppose this is a pointless post. however, I am going to copypasta the suggestion on the Rogue CA in the suggestions thread.

StormGuardian · 10-27-2014, 01:23 AM

Thorough observations, but it might help you understand all your numbers if you first understand how DoTs stack. Assuming all gems are poison(so they stack), time is in seconds, and just knowing that each tick is 3 seconds apart, with the last tick often being a good chunk less than the rest, the formula works as follows:

Cast 1 gem : Damage over Time - ticks every 3s (last tick is less if duration not divisible by 3s)

As expected...1 is easy peasy! Now when you cast gems with some other poison effect on target:

Damage1 = poison damage already on target
Damage2 = poison damage on gem(this includes any bonuses normally)
Time1 = duration left on poison already on target
Time2 = duration of poison on gem(includes things like dark patience and hasten demise)

The new poison will look like:

newDamage = damage1+damage2
newTime = time1 * damage1 / (damage1 + damage2) + time2 * damage2 / (damage1+damage2)

newDamage over newTime is your new poison! newTime can also be slightly simplified to:

newTime = (time1 * damage1 + time2 * damage2) / (damage1+damage2)

So for a quick example, lets say you cast 2 gems, that are 30 poison over 30 seconds, to make the numbers easy, the 2nd gem will be cast 15 seconds after the first, halfway through it's duration:

First gem, is cast and starts ticking, 3 damage every 3 seconds. 15 seconds later, the 2nd gem is cast. The first gem has 15 damage left over 15 seconds. So we get:
Damage1 = 15
Time1 = 15
Damage2 = 30
TIme2 = 30

So the formula is:

newDamage = 15 + 30 = 45
newTime = 15 * 15 / (15 + 30) + 30 * 30 / (15+30) = 5+20 = 25

Giving us a new poison tick of 45 over 25 seconds, which will tick for 5.4 every 3 seconds...or in game, you will see 5 5 6 5 6...etc...to account for the rounding.

The way they work is that the stronger DoT(dps wise) has a bigger pull on duration of the new DoT effect. If you cast a higher DPS DoT after the same DoT is already applied, the total length will shorten if the higher DPS DoT has a shorter length than the one remaining on the target, or will lengthen if the higher DPS DoT has a longer length than the time remaining(will still be shorter than the newest DoT cast, but longer than what was left on the target).

In the case of the rogue CA, I have not tested it significantly, but I do have a low lvl rogue that I fooled around with a little bit. The DoT on the CA is much faster(shorter in length, aka, higher DPS than most poisons you will be casting) and so shortens the length of any poison gems quite drastically.

The DK's disease CA works very much the same...not sure how the magicians burn CA would affect burns, as they are very fast DoTs already. It would definitely increase the speed of an archers flameshot or casters burning soul procs though!

So basically, what you are seeing should be expected, casting your CA after a poison gem, would increase it's speed by a chunk, and then having a capped Rogue cast their CA after that, being a even higher DPS poison, would hasten the DoT significantly again, resulting in a shorter duration, giving the illusion that it does more damage, where as the CAs are actually "linear" in the amount of damage they do.

To test your multiplicative theory, there are 2 things you should do:

First, pick a poison gem. Cast it on a target, and IMMEDIATELY hit your rogue CA. Add up the damage from the gem AND your CA. Write it down.

Second, using the same gem, cast it on a target. Wait until only 2-3 ticks of the gem are left, then cast your rogue CA. Add up the damage from the gem AND your CA again. Make sure to start from the very first tick...also make sure you don't level anything that affects DoT damage/time/etc.

If they are the same, everything is linear, and no problems exist, it is just a matter of when you use the CA and how big the pull on duration is

You could also do this with a 2nd rogue in the fight also, just do 2 CAs quickly, or 2 CAs near the end of the poison, or one at the start and one at the end...to vary what's left on the initial poison. Just make sure you keep everything the same! Happy testing!