Potential Deft Recovery Change

Glitchless · 06-27-2014, 12:22 AM

Currently Deft Recovery provides a huge haste increase when 0 gems are in play, and that haste is greatly diminished when 1 or more gems are in play. We are considering a change to make the skill provide less haste when 0 gems are in play in turn for slightly more haste when 1 or more gems are in play. This would serve to have the skill do more of what it was intended to do which is help a person rebuild their in-play gems after an apoc or pouch switch rather than to spam gems or quickly cycle through to find a particular gem.

We would like to hear if anyone has any reasons for why this would be good/bad. Emphasis on reasons.

billyrules · 06-27-2014, 12:23 AM

i dont like it

Glitchless · 06-27-2014, 12:28 AM

A reason for the change:
As it stands the lure of having 0 gems in play for a huge haste increase in draw speed is so great that many builds do not even consider putting gems in play. With no gems in play the amount of viable strategies is dramatically reduced, to the point of simply being boring.

Kerrlahg · 06-27-2014, 12:52 AM

So with the change having 1 gem would be slower than current having 0 gems is? In that case, no thanks. I do not want anything slower. You are asking me to accept a slower speed for having zero gems AND to accept a slower gem draw rate (when I have 1 gem out in the future compared to having zero gems now). Any slower gem draw rate than I have right now does not have my vote. If this were to occur I would just use gem haste and pray that it's the same as now, which is an unneeded complication. I cannot imagine me wanting this nerf to my DD cast speed honestly. What I care about is how fast I can cast DDs, and when I have no staff that means having no gems in play.

Want me to use auras or have more than 1 gem in my slots? Let me start drawing gems immediately when battle begins so I have no reason to discard the auras I start with. Any delay in my gem drawing will make me discard the gems while I wait.

I feel I may be being a bit unreasonable, but I don't want to wait to encourage variety. I want to cast more gems. There is a clever solution somewhere which means you can have your variety and I can maintain a draw rate as fast as I can cast, but I don't know what it is.

Please don't make me wait longer to cast DDs. I have been encouraged by the system to be a melee/caster hybrid and I chose deft casting so that I can cast (nearly) as fast as someone with a staff. I don't want that taken away, please. If I have to use recastable gems to maintain that rate it harms me by costing more mana, which I don't have much to spare while a staff caster does have more mana to spare.

From what I understand this will be a deterimental patch (a nerf to me). There aren't very many characters which are hybrid and balanced more towards the gems than I am. It will take some reason numbers to prove tome this is not a nerf pointed right at my face.

Do it if you must, but I don't think I need a nerf and I'm kinda sad that this may happen in the name of variety only.

I would like the see some maths on the subject before I get hot n' bothered over anything, but it doesn't sound good.

chloe · 06-27-2014, 02:12 AM

i like the way it is now, as you have to sacrifice any auras or 'saved' gems to keep drawing and casting, which is how i set my build up to keep healing, the biggest weakness of that is getting stunned or mesed or dazed, as i remove any auras to draw fast.

personally im not sure if this will help or hinder me, but it will certainly change hybrid casting, and it will take away some of my offensive damage when casting dots.

as of yet there are no recast able heals either, or dots for that matter.

also what kerrlahg said

Oneangel · 06-27-2014, 04:46 AM

I understand this will feel a big disadvantage to some that have their builds based in deft recovery, however I think this is a well needed change. I can currently cast gems as fast as a bm with 0 gems out as when I am set as a caster and faster than when compared to caster with a couple if auras out. This means that other than energy/mana cost and a few staff only skills, with good mana/energy recovery it vamping you can consistently cast gems as fast and as hard as a staff user as without. This puts paladins and jewlers bonuses at a big disadvantage since their bonuses are surpassed by the power of deft recovery in most circumstances. It also makes cantrips pointless or unnecessary when before deft they were useful. I'm sorry for all those that invested in builds based on deft recovery but I think this change would definitely improve the game variation and Im sure the change will not be so dramatic as to ruin your builds. It may even make them better through experimenting with using different auras in conjunction with deft rec. eg. Before you would want no gems up for casting, but if faster with 1 out would allow you to run sacrigenisis while casting and so vastly improve your ability to farm high level areas. My 2 cents...and a copper penny, an iron penny and a silver talent for good luck.

Killda · 06-27-2014, 04:57 AM

it is good the way it is now ... don't change it please.

I know why you want to change it, because of the upcoming autocasting feature ... but this autocast feature will just not be as good as fast casting with the current deft recovery speed ... so people won't want to have their toon loose on DPS.

Enduir · 06-27-2014, 06:02 AM

Personally I think I'd like some comparison of the current v proposed speeds. In theory, I'm all for this. I'd rather not have to spam shatter my gems, better draw speed with three nice auras up does sound good to me. I can see how it could nerf DD-spam dps and healers, though the trade-off might make it worth keeping auras up again for them also.

Is there a possibility of compromising with a deft-altering skill? Kinda like stalking for pets, as you raise it you move from current deft properties to lower haste with 0 gems up and better haste with 1+ gems up? Then everyone can find the sweet spot for their build, plus nobody gets nerfed if they don't want it.

Also geef encumbrance patch early pl0x.

Killda · 06-27-2014, 06:07 AM

it would be nice to have a toggle option:

when you keep the option off ... then it is like right now, gem have to be clicked and deft recovery has same speed as now.

when you turn the option on ... then gems are autocated as soon as they are put in play ... and keep on being casted if they are recastable gems .. but the draw speed from deft is lowered ... so Casters can also afk farm !

just my 2 cents

LadyGaGya · 06-27-2014, 08:47 AM

Don't muck about with it

xshadowedxx · 06-27-2014, 08:50 AM

Imo, glitch should speed up the gem haste when having 1 or more gems in play. but keep the same haste 0 gems in play is at atm. thus buffing up having aura's out. so theres a bit more variety in builds without nerfing dd casters like me that use deft recovery.

Gooddevil · 06-27-2014, 10:49 AM

If you keep deft the way it is, casters wearing staff need some form of compensation. So far staff has no advantage in casting speed because deft.

We need skills that staff users can benefit from. So far any class can cast super fast, double/quad cast and so on.

Make staff users better with gems.

Glitchless · 06-27-2014, 11:09 AM

As it stands right now we are not likely to modify Deft Recovery in any way. You sacrifice a lot by having 0 gems in play, and you are an easy target for stun locks.

Sezr · 06-27-2014, 01:14 PM

It is a huge sacrifice to have no gems at all in play. It requires you to build a pouch around the draw speed, rather than around what you need to supplement your casting needs(eternity replenishers,defensive auras, etc). I think a viable change would be to mitigate the effect that auras have on deft recovery, and to slow down the rate slightly when having no gems at. as kerr pointed out,this may require some people to have a draw haste aura to maintain the same speed. But now they could also add a melee haste aura, or maybe a defensive aura, or an eternity replenisher to supplement manergy recovery.

If the speed is only raised on 1 gem,and slowed on 0,then it is a nerf to those who built around drawing a **** ton of gems as fast as possilbe. However,if multiple gems that are auras(2,maybe 3?) would give the same effect as having 1 non aura gem out in terms of deft recovery speed, it would still slightly nerf dps, but would give more defensive and utilitarian options. Hell,would even give more offensive options due to the offensive aruas such as bif and weighted.

If the goal is to rebalance and not to nerf, then I would suggest changing how auras effect deft recovery with your proposed change. If i was unclear in explaining how this mechanic would work, let me know and I can try to make a more detailed post.

Blondhair · 06-27-2014, 01:38 PM

Supporting intro and Oneangels argumentation.

SiSiX · 06-27-2014, 03:05 PM

...just a fading, memory...

StormGuardian · 06-27-2014, 10:36 PM

Deft when it first came out was super OP, and casters just pew pew'd everything...then all the melee buffs and LG weaps and biff/split gems and more hp bonuses got added, and casters needed deft to even keep up and have a chance...as much as I hated it when it was first put in, it's really kinda too late to do anything to it now that everything else has been being balanced around it for a while.

If anything is to be done, it should be lowered a bit for non-staff users...or buffed for ONLY staff users with auras...like someone said make auras just not count if you have a staff equipped or something. Otherwise, most of what's been said is pretty accurate, to fiddle with it too much would just kill it, or casters, all together.

Buff heals kthnx!

flipynifty · 06-28-2014, 12:41 PM

first off, staff users already get bonus to gem haste and have gem haste auras available.

Im a caster too, without a staff, im a tank. I cast taunts. Deft recovery is ONLY good if i dont use auras which is silly because auras are quite neccesary.

Glitch's idea is a GOOD idea and SHOULD be implimented.

Id say maybe even since everyone is whining that deft rec just gives a flat boost for gem haste. I see NO advantage to having no auras out and having fast gems unless, yes, youre a caster and you dont use the auras and have a tank already.

Sanluciferr · 07-06-2014, 01:47 AM

What took you so long to realize that deft recovery was broken? and what made u change ur mind about changing it? i just dont understand why u havent change it or fix it yet.

It is stupid as it can be towards specific builds that depend on specific gems and it is literally a nasty sideboard against casters with the incidental prevent replay gem fillers pouch.

Oneangel · 07-06-2014, 02:22 AM

If you take away deft rec then apocalypse becomes too op again but still think some change to it would help. Maybe if apo either had its energy/mana requirement drastically increased or changed so only works 75% of the time it lands you could change deft a bit more, else we will go back to the apocalypse spamming teams which would hurt all aura based teams which since melee/pet/archers need them to get constant aoe have been a strong addition to team types that are viable for arena.